I'll answer it here if you'd like. Belief in Jesus Christ.

you would go to hell for sure.... you dont believe in your creator who is jealous & also obv ignorant & simple minded so although you do things considered to us on earth as "good" or "holy"... your brain is a peanut to the wonder that is jesus and will not ever comprehend that being a child who sends a non believer in flames for all of eternity is the correct & just thing to do


we as human beings are too simple to understand the magic/aura of god(yet we must still believe in something we were never designed to be able to understand in the first place)



lolololololol


its 2011.. why is this section even on 2+2 seriously?...

Well, that thread ended---as you'll remember---with Original Position saying this:

You never replied. My question is: do you still have no answer for Original Position (i.e. no Biblically-based defense of your belief); or have things have changed since that thread?

I haven't put a ton of thought into it since then. One great thing that came out of that thread was OrigPos broke down my position and showed some of the things I was holding as required for salvation may not be required. The only one that I came away with being 100% sure on was belief in Jesus. Thus belief in Jesus is at least what is required for salvation according to scripture. I'm leaving open the possibility of more than broad belief in Christ being required, and holding firmly in that one requirement.

For me the question is "how does god make it fair and simple for everyone and anyone to get into heaven"
Most of us wont be rich like that so we wont be able to do those u describe, if thats the standard then no one
would get in. So how does a poor man get into heaven who has nothing and cant do much since he is disabled.
Or what about a killer rapeist who has never heard about god until his death
bed.
How does these things fit in when trying to get into heaven

^^ how about a man who went insane?... or a ******?.... both individuals cannot think str8 & truly be a believer, so god hates all of these ppl no?


religion= bullshido & we all know it...

And what was your Biblically-based defense of this requirement, again?

This answer completely misses the point. It is irrelevant how many non Christians commit similar crimes.
The fact that any priest commits them, disproves the claim that God changes Christians, so that they can only do good.
The only way to save this, is to play the "no true Christian" card, which is an unimpressive defense.

Scripture that says salvation comes by faith in Jesus. John 3:16 off the top of my head. Paul's writing has numerous verses on this as well.

I doubt he is claiming that Christians can only do good. I think he is simply crediting changed desires and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to God's grace through belief in Jesus.

Have you entirely forgotten your HC - Foundational vs speculative doctrines of Christianity - HC thread?

Ok, so John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Original Position agreed in that thread that Scripture supports the requirement that "some belief in God" is necessary to be saved. But there, just like here, you tried to go further and insert this requirement of faith in Jesus. This failed completely. (E.g. we see that John 3:16 actually says nothing about faith.)

You also promised Pauline support in that thread; you failed to deliver. My question here: can you now deliver?

I think he rather explicitly stated that - they can't help but to do good -. How can you claim "what he meant to say" going by an explicit statement like that?

I wish I could make any random statement out there, and then claim that I did not mean it in the way that it is presented. If you do not mean it in the way its presented, then how about not presenting it in that way in the first place? That makes sense, doesn't it?

I am getting fed up with people making bold statements and then adjusting them (or others adjusting them) as the thread begins to beat down on them. Would be nice to see some integrity, and people sticking by their claims - in the way they were presented - rather than retrofitting everything that may put their beliefs in question. Actually reminds me of countless conversations with my christian friends.

Anyway, sorry for the random rant. Back on topic - answer so far seems to be: Hypothetical person would go to Hell.

Now I ask you all...if you were God (yes I know it's hard to imagine but please try to), and you had the power to change the rules written down in scriptures, would you put this hypothetical person in Hell?

Yes.......why because I'm god i can do whatever i want and i make the rules. What can you do about it?

This was my main issue with christianity when i was like 9 and my parents took me to church every sunday. This view just seemed downright evil/psychopathic to me. That someone who was genuinely dedicating his life to good and even making a huge difference would be punished(go to hell) over all the dolts that happened to be brought up in the correct faith or happened to turn to the correct faith by chance. Totally absurd/immoral to even my 9 year old self.

This doesn't even mention the idea that if you are a objectively evil person, like a pedophile priest who rapes dozens of boys in your life and makes there life and their family much worse for it, that you can still pass go and go to heaven as long as you atone and are a true believer when you die. Bollocks.

So in OP's scenario wealth from the rich is re-distributed to the masses while they become indoctrinated in godlessness. Hmmm, where have we heard that idea before?

I wish I had the skills to make a demotivational poster of this quote, with the words underneath: "...Because apathetic sarcasm makes you sound cool on the interwebs"
Agree, I had similar thoughts at the age of 9. Little did I know, that looking back to childhood, I would actually have thoughts that I don't consider stupid.

Where?

Karl Marx, Soviet union, Mao , Red china, Cuba, right? Sorry if I was too obtuse.

You might find it hard to get an straight answer to your scenario question since different Christian denominations or Christian sects or atheists have different views on what gets people into heaven. Liberal Christians say sincere good works along with repentance for sin are enough. Conservative Christians have more restrictive criteria. In your scenario publically working to get people to forgo true God and true Christianity would be a major sin and be a big hurdle though imho.

The universalist would let him in...

So are you saying that only by believing in jesus and being morally good will you go to heaven?

These categories are incredibly broad, and picking up on a single phrase like "give more to the poor/starving" and automatically saying - OMAGOD COMMUNIST!! makes my blood boil. Besides most people in communist countries (and in all countries) are religious, so I don't see any real parallels between this hypothetical and communism.

It is possible to give more to the poor, without becoming communist. It's better categorized as - being a decent human being with empathy towards those less fortunate.

There is no doubt that communist governments (including N. Korea) have actively supressed religion while promising mass distribution of wealth. If many people in those countries still remain religious, they do it at a risk. I'm sure you were not intending this type of philanthropic billionaire in your original scenario so this type of discussion will get us off topic.

I thought it was a good joke.

'Believes in him(Jesus)' being faith, and 'eternal life' being salvation. I don't think this is me misunderstanding the scripture, but if youd like to offer an argument to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it.

Lets look at Romans 10:9-13. Im on my phone so ill let you read it, but ill emphasize. 'because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved...For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord(Jesus) will be saved"'

No. Only through faith in Jesus. No man is morally good. Jesus takes our iniquity upon himself. We are only morally good in God's eyes because we are given and counted by Christ's righteousness. Good works are a response to God's grace through Jesus, but [thankfully] not what saves us.

Why are you thankful for this? Assume that people are sorted into those who are punished and those who are rewarded in the afterlife. Wouldn't the world be a more just place if the most moral people were rewarded and the most immoral were those punished?

For instance, let's say that we ran a country this way. If you commit a crime, you have to pay the penalty, which even for the most minor crime is death. However, some people have a patron which protects them from punishment by the state. Also, the patron won't protect you unless you agree to let him enslave you. How is this a just system?