The problem with "what ifs" is that you can make up any plausible sounding reason for why god might do something. But its useless because we have no idea, and can never have an idea, as to why he did something , or if he even had or needed reasons at all.

so while it might be interesting, it doesnt advance things 1 inch.

While true could this not be aimed at the post I responded to as well?

He was stating that he personally has a disbelief in God due to His actions representing a lack of understanding of humans (implying human nature) while at the same time the action itself mirrored human actions if viewed in a slightly different light.

Carnal

Can any thing short of death?

Why should we believe this is the only knowledge of good and evil gained from the fruit? And why would this knowledge be so terrible for humans to gain?

And, if this is the knowledge contained in the fruit, we're assuming that humans had a relationship with God, knew it was good to obey him, and chose not to. God must be a lot less impressive in person than in the books.

Occam's razor

Lends itself to lust (or is the root of it) and/or usurps God as the focus?

Impulsiveness is a human trait. People make decisions against their best interests all the time. Their actions are no more illogical.

Without being too glib, that's a pretty nothing reply.

I'm sorry if the simplest explanation doesn't satisfy you

I have no idea if it's the simplest explanation because you haven't offered it yet. Not that being the simplest is actually a good thing.

The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period. These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, nor did they necessarily have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person, because it was written by God. It has no true errors or contradictions. There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

Cool segue into a no true Scotsman discussion.

Segue?

To transition smoothly from one topic to another.

Can you give some examples, please?

Jurassic world - fantastical, yes But comprehendable / coherent.

Christian world, in which the 'laws of nature' can be suspended at the will of a supernatural person (actually three persons in one), one of whom was, or is, a human being, whose execution and subsequent reanimation being the single most important event in all of history and whether you believe it or not determines your post death existence for 'eternity', one alternative being burned in a fire lake (unclear whether this is physical or the vague 'spiritual'), the other being a Stepford-esque transformation, complete with new bodies and minds, neither of these options seem to have an obvious geographical location - no, not fantastical but Un-believable.


If acceptable in this thread, can any Christian tell me about heaven (or hell) itself, what they think it is, where it is etc. I don't think I have really heard any Christians on here (i.e. you smart Christians ) describe heaven as a 'place'.

Yes I will:

The bible was written by God through 40 men in 3 languages over a 1,500 year period. These men lived in different parts of the world, some were rich, some were poor, some were educated, some were not, most didn't know each other, many of them didn’t have access to the other's writings and yet it fits together as if it were written by one person, because it was written by God. It has no true errors or contradictions. There are countless prophecies which have been predicted and fulfilled perfectly in scripture. Many of these prophecies were written hundreds or even thousands of years before they were fulfilled.

The Predictions that Jesus fulfilled in His coming were in the hundreds. The verse on the left is the prediction written hundreds of years before He came and the verse on the right is where it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ’s actual coming hundreds of years later as testified by the actual eyewitnesses. It is impossible that He is not Messiah, Savior of the world. The ONLY person...past, present or future...who could fulfill all these prophecies is Jesus Christ

Fulfilled Prophecy Tenakh/Hebrew
Scripture New Testament

Micah 5:2 His pre-existence John 1:1, 14
Genesis 3:15 Born of the seed of a woman Matthew 1:18
Genesis 12:3 Of the seed of Abraham Matthew 1:1-16
Genesis 12:3 All nations blessed by Abraham's seed Matthew 8:5, 10
Genesis 22:8 God would provide Himself a Lamb as an offering John 1:29
Genesis 49:10 From the tribe of Judah Matthew 1:1-3
Isaiah 9:6-7 Heir to the throne of David Matthew 1:1
Isaiah 9:6 Called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father" Matthew 1:23
Micah 5:2 Born in Bethlehem Matthew 2:1
Isaiah 7:14 Born of a virgin Matthew 1:18
Isaiah 7:14 His name called Immanuel, "God with us" Matthew 1:23
Psalm 2:7 Declared to be the Son of God Matthew 3:17
Malachi 4:5-6 His messenger before Him in spirit of Elijah Luke 1:17
Malachi 3:1 Preceded by a messenger to prepare His way Matthew 11:7-11
Isaiah 40:3 Messenger crying "Prepare ye the way of the Lord" Matthew 3:3
Deuteronomy 18:15 Would be a Prophet of the children of Israel Matthew 2:15
Hosea 11:1 Called out of Egypt Matthew 2:15
Jeremiah 31:15 Slaughter of the children Matthew2:18
Judges 13:5;Amos 2:11;Lam. 4:7 Would be a Nazarene Matthew 2:23
Isaiah 9:1-2 Brought light to Zabulon & Nephthalm, Galilee of the Gentiles Matthew 4:15
Psalm 72:10 Presented with gifts Matthew 2:1, 11
Isaiah 53:3 Rejected by His own Matthew 21:42; Mark 8:31,12:10; Luke 9:22,17:25 Psalm 118:22-23;
Isaiah 28:16He is the stone which the builders rejected which became the headstone Matthew 21:42; IPeter 2:7
Isaiah 8:14-15 A stone of stumbling to Israel I Peter 2:8
Zechariah 9:9 He entered Jerusalem as a king riding on an ass Matthew 21:5
Psalms 41:9 Betrayed by a friend John 13:21
Zechariah 11:12 Sold for 30 pieces of silver Matthew 26:15; Luke 22:5
Zechariah 11:12 The 30 pieces of silver given for the potter's field Matthew 27:9-10
Zechariah 11:13 The 30 pieces of silver thrown in the temple Matthew 27:5
Zechariah 13:7 Forsaken by His disciples Matthew 26:56
Psalm 35:11 Accused by false witnesses Matthew 26:60
Isaiah 53:7 Silent to accusations Matthew 27:14
Isaiah 35:5-6 Isaiah 29:18 Heal blind/deaf/lame/dumb; Matthew 11:5
Isaiah 61:Preached to the poor/*******earted/captives 1 Matthew 11:5
Micah 7:6 Came to bring a sword, not peace Matthew 10:34-35
Isaiah 53:4 He bore our sickness Matthew 8:16-17
Isaiah 50:6, 53:5 Spat upon, smitten and scourged Matthew 27:26, 30
Micah 5:1 Smitten on the cheek Matthew 27:30
Psalm 35:19 Hated without a cause Matthew 27:23
Isaiah 53:5 The sacrificial lamb John 1:29
Isaiah 42:6;Jeremiah 31:31-34Given for a covenant Romans 11:27/Galatians 3:17, 4:24/Hebrews 8:6, 8, 10; 10:16, 29; 12:24; 13:20
Isaiah 42:2-3 Would not strive or cry Mark 7:36
Isaiah 6:9-10 People would hear not and see not Matthew 13:14-15
Isaiah 29:13 People trust in traditions of men Matthew 15:9
Isaiah 29:13 People give God lip service Matthew 15:8
Isaiah 42:1 God delights in Him Matthew 3:17, 17:5
Isaiah 53:5 Wounded for our sins John 6:51
Isaiah 53:10-12 He bore the sins of many Mark 10:45
Daniel 9:26 Messiah not killed for Himself Matthew 20:28
Isaiah 55:5, 60:3,65:1; Malachi1:11;II Samuel 22:44-45; Psalm 2:7-8Gentiles flock to Him
Matthew 8:10
Isaiah 53:12 Crucified with criminals Matthew 27:35
Zechariah 12:10; His body was pierced Ps. 22:16 John 20:25, 27
Psalm 22:16 Thirsty during execution John 19:28
Psalm 69:21 Given vinegar and gall for thirst Matthew 27:34
Psalm 22:18 Soldiers gambled for his garment Matthew 27:35
Psalm 22:7-8 People mocked, "He trusted in God, let Him deliver him!" Matthew 27:43
Psalm 22:17 People sat there looking at Him Matthew 27:36
Psalm 22:1 Cried, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46
Amos 8:9 Darkness over the land Matthew 27:45
Psalm 34:20, Numbers 9:12 No bones broken John 19:33-36
Zechariah 12:10 Side pierced John 19:34
Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Matthew 27:57, 60
Psalm 16:10-11; 49:15 Resurrected from the dead Mark 16:6
Psalm 110:4 Priest after the order of Melchizedek Hebrews 5:5-6; 6:20; 7:15-17
Psalm 68:18 Ascended to right hand of God Luke 24:51
Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto Him, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make
thine enemies thy footstool Matt 22:44; Mark 12:36;, 16:19; Luke 20:42-43;
Acts 2:34-35; Hebrews 1:13
His coming glory Malachi 3:2-3 Luke 3:17
324 Messianic Prophecies
Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18
Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mk. 6:19
Gen. 9:26,27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Lu.
3:36
Gen. 12:3...As Abraham's seed,will bless all nations...Acts.
3:25,26
Gen. 12:7...The Promise made to Abraham's Seed...Gal. 3:16
Gen. 14:18...A priest after Melchizedek...Heb. 6:20
Gen. 14:18........A King also........Heb. 7:2
Gen. 14:18...The Last Supper foreshadowed...Mt. 26:26-29
Gen. 17:19.......The Seed of Isaac.......Rom. 9:7
Gen. 22:8...The Lamb of God promised...Jn. 1:29
Gen. 22:18...As Isaac's seed, will bless all nations...Gal. 3:16
Gen.26:2-5..The Seed of Isaac promised as the
Redeemer..Heb.11:18
Gen. 49:10...The time of His coming...Lu. 2:1-7; Gal. 4:4
Gen. 49:10.......The Seed of Judah.......Lu. 3:33
Gen. 49:10......Called Shiloh or One Sent......Jn. 17:3
Gen. 49:10...To come before Judah lost identity...Jn. 11:47-52
Gen. 49:10...To Him shall the obedience of the people be...Jn.
10:16
Ex. 3:13,14........The Great "I Am".......Jn. 4:26
Ex. 12:5...A Lamb without blemish...1 Pet. 1:19
Ex. 12:13...The blood of the Lamb saves from wrath...Rom. 5:8
Ex. 12:21-27...Christ is our Passover...1 Cor. 5;7
Ex. 12:46...Not a bone of the Lamb to be broken...Jn. 19:31-36
Ex. 15:2...His exaltation predicted as Yeshua...Acts 7:55,56
Ex. 15:11...His Character-Holiness...Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27
Ex. 17:6...The Spiritual Rock of Israel...1 Cor. 10;4
Ex. 33:19...His Character-Merciful...Lu. 1:72
Lev.14:11..The leper cleansed-Sign to priesthood..Lu.5:12-14;
Acts 6:7
Lev.16:15-17...Prefigures Christ's once-for-all death...Heb. 9:7-14
Lev.16:27...Suffering outside the Camp...Mt. 27:33; Heb. 13:11,
12
Lev.17:11...The Blood-the life of the flesh...Mt. 26;28; Mk. 10:45
Lev.17:11...It is the blood that makes atonement...1 Jn. 3:14-18
Lev.23:36-37...The Drink-offering: "If any man thirst." ..Jn.
19:31-36
Num. 9:12...Not a bone of Him broken...John 19:31-36
Num. 21:9...The serpent on a pole-Christ lifted up...Jn. 3:14-18
Num. 24:17...Time: "I shall see him, but not now."...Gal. 4:4
Deut. 18:15..."This is of a truth that prophet."...Jn. 6:14
Deut. 18:15-16..."Had ye believed Moses, ye would believe
me."...Jn. 5:45-47
Deut. 18:18...Sent by the Father to speak His word...Jn. 8:28, 29
Deut. 18:19...Whoever will not hear must bear his sin...Jn. 12:15,
Deut. 21:23...Cursed is he that hangs on a tree...Gal. 3:10-13
Ruth 4:4-9...Christ, our kinsman, has redeemed us...Eph. 1:3-7
1 Sam. 2:10...Shall be an anointed King to the Lord...Mt. 28:18;
Jn. 12:15
2 Sam. 7:12...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1
2 Sam. 7:14a...The Son of God... Lu. 1:32
2 Sam. 7:16...David's house established forever...Lu. 3:31; Rev.
22:16
2 Ki. 2:11...The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated...Lu. 24:51
1 Chr. 17:11...David's Seed...Mt. 1:1; 9:27
1 Chr. 17:12, 13a...To reign on David's throne forever...Lu. 1:32,
33
1 Chr. 17:13a..."I will be His Father, He...my Son."...Heb. 1:5
Job 19:23-27...The Resurrection predicted...Jn. 5:24-29
Psa. 2:1-3...The enmity of kings foreordained...Acts 4:25-28
Psa. 2:2...To own the title, Anointed (Christ)...Acts 2:36
Ps. 2:6...His Character-Holiness...Jn. 8:46; Rev. 3:7
Ps. 2:6...To own the title King...Mt. 2:2
Ps. 2:7...Declared the Beloved Son...Mt. 3;17
Psa. 2:7, 8...The Crucifixion and Resurrection intimated...Acts
13:29-33
Psa. 2:12...Life comes through faith in Him...Jn. 20:31
Psa. 8:2...The mouths of babes perfect His praise...Mt. 21:16
Psa. 8:5, 6...His humiliation and exaltation...Lu. 24:50-53; 1 Cor.
15:27
Psa. 16:10...Was not to see corruption...Acts 2:31
Psa. 16:9-11...Was to arise from the dead...Jn. 20:9
Psa. 17;15...The resurrection predicted...Lu. 24:6
Psa. 22:1...Forsaken because of sins of others...2 Cor. 5:21
Psa. 22:1...Words spoken from Calvary, "My God..." Mk.
15:34
Psa. 22:2...Darkness upon Calvary...Mt. 27:45
Psa. 22:7...They shoot out the lip and shake the head...Mt.
27:39
Psa. 22:8.."He trusted in God, let Him deliver Him"...Mt.
27:43
Psa. 22:9......Born the Saviour......Lu. 2:7
Psa. 22:14...Died of a broken (ruptured)heart...Jn. 19:34
Psa. 22:14,15...Suffered agony on Calvary...Mk. 15:34-37
Psa. 22:15........He thirsted........Jn. 19:28
Psa. 22:16...They pierced His hands and His feet....Jn.
19:34,37;20:27
Psa. 22:17,18...Stripped Him before the stares of men...Lu.
23:34,35
Psa. 22:18.....They parted His garments.....Jn. 19:23,24
Psa. 22:20,21...He committed Himself to God...Lu.23:46
Psa. 22:20,21..Satanic power bruising the Redeemer's
heel..Heb. 2:14
Psa. 22:22.....His Resurrection declared.....Jn. 20:17
Psa. 22:27...He shall be the governor of the nations...Col 1:16
Psa. 22:31......"It is finished"......Jn. 19:30
Psa. 23:1...."I am the Good Shephard"....Jn. 10:11
Psa. 24:3......His exaltation predicted......Acts 1:11; Phil. 2:9
Psa. 30:3......His resurrection predicted......Acts 2:32
Psa. 31:5..."Into thy hands I commit my spirit"...Lu. 23:46
Psa. 31:11...His acquaintances fled from Him...Mk. 14:50
Psa. 31:13...They took counsel to put Him to death...Jn. 11:53
Psa. 31:14,15..." He trusted in God, let Him deliver him"...Mt.
27:43
Psa. 34:20.....Not a bone of Him broken.....Jn 19:31-36
Psa. 35:11....False witnesses rose up against Him....Mt. 26:59
Psa. 35:19...He was hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 38:11.....His friends stood afar off.....Lu. 23:49
Psa. 40:2-5...The joy of His resurrection predicted...Jn. 20:20
Psa. 40:6-8....His delight-the will of the Father....Jn. 4:34
Psa. 40:9....He was to preach the Righteousness in Israel....Mt.
4:17
Psa. 40:14...Confronted by adversaries in the Garden...Jn. 18:4-6
Psa. 41:9.....Betrayed by a familiar friend.....Jn. 13:18
Psa. 45:2...Words of Grace come from His lips...Lu. 4:22
Psa. 45:6...To own the title, God or Elohim...Heb. 1:8
Psa. 45:7...A special anointing by the Holy Spirit...Mt.3:16;
Heb.1:9
Psa. 45:7,8...Called the Christ (Messiah or Anointed)...Lu. 2:11
Psa. 55:12-14...Betrayed by a friend, not an enemy...Jn. 13:18
Psa. 55:15...Unrepentant death of the Betrayer...Mt. 27:3-5; Acts
1:16-19
Psa. 68:18...To give gifts to men...Eph. 4:7-16
Psa. 68:18...Ascended into Heaven...Lu. 24:51
Psa. 69:4...Hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 69:8...A stranger to own brethren...Lu. 8;20,21
Psa. 69:9...Zealous for the Lord's House...Jn. 2:17
Psa. 69:14-20...Messiah's anguish of soul before crucifixion...Mt.
26:36-45
Psa. 69:20..."My soul is exceeding sorrowful."...Mt. 26:38
Psa. 69:21...Given vinegar in thirst...Mt. 27:34
Psa. 69:26...The Saviour given and smitten by God...Jn. 17:4;
18:11
Psa. 72:10,11...Great persons were to visit Him...Mt. 2:1-11
Psa. 72:16...The corn of wheat to fall into the Ground...Jn. 12:24
Psa. 72:17...His name, Yinon, will produce offspring...Jn. 1:12,13
Psa. 72:17...All nations shall be blessed by Him...Acts 2:11,12,41
Psa. 78:1.2...He would teach in parables...Mt. 13:34-35
Psa. 78:2b...To speak the Wisdom of God with authority...Mt.
7:29
Psa. 88:8...They stood afar off and watched...Lu. 23:49
Psa. 89:27...Emmanuel to be higher than earthly kings...Lu.
1:32,33
Psa. 89:35-37...David's Seed, throne, kingdom endure
forever...Lu. 1:32,33
Psa. 89:36-37...His character-Faithfulness...Rev. 1:5
Psa. 90:2...He is from everlasting (Micah 5:2)...Jn. 1:1
Psa. 91:11,12...Identified as Messianic; used to tempt Christ...Lu.
4;10,11
Psa. 97:9...His exaltation predicted...Acts 1:11;Eph. 1:20
Psa. 100:5...His character-Goodness...Mt. 19:16,17
Psa. 102:1-11...The Suffering and Reproach of Calvary...Jn.
21:16-30
Psa. 102:25-27...Messiah is the Preexistent Son...Heb. 1:10-12
Psa. 109:25...Ridiculed...Mt. 27:39
Psa. 110:1...Son of David...Mt. 22:43
Psa. 110:1...To ascend to the right-hand of the Father...Mk.16:19
Psa. 110:1...David's son called Lord...Mt. 22:44,45
Psa. 110:4...A priest after Melchizedek's order...Heb. 6:20
Psa. 112:4...His character-Compassionate, Gracious, et al... Mt.
9;36
Psa. 118:17,18...Messiah's Resurrection assured...Lu. 24:5-7;1
Cor. 15:20
Psa. 118:22,23...The rejected stone is Head of the corner...Mt.
21:42,43
Psa. 118:26a...The Blessed One presented to Israel...Mt. 21:9
Psa. 118:26b...To come while Temple standing...Mt. 21;12-15
Psa. 132:11...The Seed of David(the fruit of His Body)...Lu. 1:32
Psa. 138:1-6...The supremacy of David's Seed amazes kings... Mt.
2:2-6
Psa. 147:3,6...The earthly ministry of Christ described...Lu. 4:18
Psa. 1:23...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16;7
Song. 5;16...The altogether lovely One...Jn. 1:17
Isa. 6:1...When Isaiah saw His glory... Jn. 12:40-41
Isa. 6:9-10...Parables fall on deaf ears...Mt. 13:13-15
Isa. 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts. 28:23-
29
Isa. 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Lu. 1:35
Isa. 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Mt. 1:18-23
Isa. 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Mt. 28:20
Isa. 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
Isa. 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Mt. 4:12-17
Isa. 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Lu. 1:31
Isa. 9:6...A Son given-Deity...Lu. 1:32; Jn. 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16
Isa. 9:6...Declared to be the Son of God with power... Rom. 1:3,4
Isa. 9:6...The Wonderful One, Peleh...Lu. 4:22
Isa. 9:6...The Counsellor, Yaatz...Mt. 13:54
Isa. 9:6...The Mighty God, El Gibor...Mt. 11:20
Isa. 9:6...The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth...Jn. 8:58
Isa. 9:6...The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom...Jn . 16:33
Isa. 9:7...To establish an everlasting kingdom...Lu. 1:32-33
Isa. 9:7...His Character-Just...Jn. 5:30
Isa. 9:7...No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace...Lu.
1:32-33
Isa. 11:1...Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer...Mt. 2:23
Isa. 11:1...A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse...Lu. 3:23,32
Isa. 11:2...The anointed One by the Spirit...Mt. 3;16,17
Isa. 11:2...His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al....Jn. 4:4-
26
Isa. 11:4...His Character-Truth...Jn. 14:6
Isa. 11:10...The Gentiles seek Him...Jn. 12:18-21
Isa. 12:2...Called Jesus-Yeshua...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 25:8...The Resurrection predicted...I Cor. 15:54
Isa. 26:19...His power of Resurrection predicted...Jn. 11:43,44
Isa. 28:16...The Messiah is the precious corner stone...Acts
4:11,12
Isa. 29:13...He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word...Mt.
15:7-9
Isa. 29:14...The wise are confounded by the Word...I Cor. 1:18-31
Isa. 32:2...A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place...Mt. 23:37
Isa. 35:4...He will come and save you...Mt. 1:21
Isa. 35:5...To have a ministry of miracles...Mt. 11:4-6
Isa. 40:3,4...Preceded by forerunner...Jn. 1:23
Isa. 40:9..."Behold your God."...Jn. 1:36;19:14
Isa. 40:11...A shepherd-compassionatelife-giver...Jn. 10:10-18
Isa. 42:1-4...The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer...
Mt.12:18-21
Isa. 42:2...Meek and lowly... Mt. 11:28-30
Isa. 42:3...He brings hope for the hopeless... Jn. 4
Isa. 42:4...The nations shall wait on His teachings... Jn. 12:20-26
Isa. 42:6...The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles...Lu. 2:32
Isa. 42:1,6...His is a Worldwide compassion... Mt. 28:19,20
Isa. 42:7...Blind eyes opened... Jn. 9:25-38
Isa. 43:11...He is the only Saviour... Acts. 4:12
Isa. 44:3...He will send the Spirit of God... Jn. 16:7,13
Isa. 45:23...He will be the Judge... Jn. 5:22;Rom. 14:11
Isa. 48:12...The First and the Last...Jn. 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17
Isa. 48:17...He came as a Teacher...Jn. 3:2
Isa. 49:1...Called from the womb-His humanity...Mt. 1:18
Isa. 49:5...A Servant from the womb...Lu. 1:31;Phil. 2:7
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation for Israel...Lu. 2:29-32
Isa. 49:6...He is the Light of the Gentiles...Acts 13:47
Isa. 49:6...He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth... Acts 15:7-
18
Isa. 49:7...He is despised of the Nation... Jn. 8:48-49
Isa. 50:3...Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation... Lu.
23:44,45
Isa. 50:4...He is a learned counsellor for the weary... Mt. 11:28,29
Isa. 50:5...The Servant bound willingly to obedience... Mt. 26:39
Isa. 50:6a..."I gave my back to the smiters."... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 50:6b...He was smitten on the cheeks... Mt. 26:67
Isa. 50:6c...He was spat upon... Mt. 27:30
Isa. 52:7...To publish good tidings of peace... Lu. 4:14,15
Isa. 52:13...The Servant exalted...Acts 1:8-11; Eph. 1:19-22
Isa. 52:13...Behold, My Servant... Mt. 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8
Isa. 52:14...The Servant shockingly abused... Lu. 18:31-34; Mt.
26:67,68
Isa. 52:15...Nations startled by message of the Servant... Rom.
15:18-21
Isa. 52:15...His blood shed to make atonement for all... Rev. 1:5
Isa. 53:1...His people would not believe Him... Jn. 12:37-38
Isa. 53:2a...He would grow up in a poor family.... Lu. 2:7
Isa. 53:2b...Appearance of an ordinary man... Phil. 2:7-8
Isa. 53:3a...Despised.... Lu. 4:28-29
Isa. 53:3b...Rejected... Mt. 27:21-23
Isa. 53:3c...Great sorrow and grief... Lu. 19:41-42
Isa. 53:3d...Men hide from being associated with Him... Mk.
14:50-52
Isa. 53:4a...He would have a healing ministry... Lu. 6:17-19
Isa. 53:4b...He would bear the sins of the world... 1 Pet. 2:24
Isa. 53:4c...Thought to be cursed by God... Mt. 27:41-43
Isa. 53:5a...Bears penalty for mankind's transgressions... Lu. 23:33
Isa. 53:5b...His sacrifice would provide peace between man and
God... Col. 1:20
Isa. 53:5c...His back would be whipped... Mt. 27:26
Isa. 53:6a...He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind...Gal. 1:4
Isa. 53:6b...God's will that He bear sin for all mankind... 1 Jn.
4:10
Isa. 53:7a...Oppressed and afflicted... Mt. 27:27-31
Isa. 53:7b...Silent before his accusers... Mt. 27:12-14
Isa. 53:7c...Sacrificial lamb... Jn. 1:29
Isa. 53:8a...Confined and persecuted... Mt. 26:47-27:31
Isa. 53:8b...He would be judged... Jn. 18:13-22
Isa. 53:8c...Killed.... Mt. 27:35
Isa. 53:8d...Dies for the sins of the world... 1 Jn. 2:2
Isa. 53:9a...Buried in a rich man's grave... Mt. 27:57
Isa. 53:9b...Innocent and had done no violence... Mk. 15:3
Isa. 53:9c...No deceit in his mouth... Jn. 18:38
Isa. 53:10a...God's will that He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Isa. 53:10b...An offering for sin... Mt. 20:28
Isa. 53:10c...Resurrected and live forever.... Mk. 16:16
Isa. 53:10d...He would prosper... Jn. 17:1-5
Isa. 53:11a...God fully satisfied with His suffering... Jn. 12:27
Isa. 53:11b...God's servant... Rom. 5:18-19
Isa. 53:11c...He would justify man before God... Rom. 5:8-9
Isa. 53:11d...The sin-bearer for all mankind... Heb. 9:28
Isa. 53:12a...Exalted by God because of his sacrifice... Mt. 28:18
Isa. 53:12b...He would give up his life to save mankind... Lu.
23:46
Isa. 53:12c...Grouped with criminals... Lu. 23:32
Isa. 53:12d...Sin-bearer for all mankind... 2 Cor. 5:21
Isa. 53:12e...Intercede to God in behalf of mankind... Lu. 23:34
Isa. 55:3...Resurrected by God... Acts 13:34
Isa. 55:4...A witness... Jn. 18:37
Isa. 59:15-16a...He would come to provide salvation... Jn. 6:40
Isa. 59:15-16b...Intercessor between man and God... Mt. 10:32
Isa. 59:20...He would come to Zion as their Redeemer... Lu. 2:38
Isa. 61:1-2a...The Spirit of God upon him... Mt. 3:16-17
Isa. 61:1-2b...The Messiah would preach the good news... Lu.
4:17-21
Isa. 61:1-2c...Provide freedom from the bondage of sin and
death... Jn. 8:31-32
Isa. 61:1-2...Proclaim a period of grace... Jn. 5:24
Jer.23:5-6a...Descendant of David...Lu. 3:23-31
Jer. 23:5-6b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 13:13
Jer. 23:5-6c...The Messiah would be both God and Man... 1 Tim.
3:16
Jer. 31:22...Born of a virgin... Mt. 1:18-20
Jer. 31:31...The Messiah would be the new covenant... Mt. 26:28
Jer. 33:14-15...Descendant of David... Lu. 3:23-31
Eze.17:22-24...Descendant of David... Lk. 3:23-31
Eze.34:23-24...Descendant of David... Mt. 1:1
Dan. 7:13-14a...He would ascend into heaven... Acts 1:9-11
Dan. 7:13-14b...Highly exalted... Eph. 1:20-22
Dan. 7:13-14c...His dominion would be everlasting... Lu. 1:31-33
Dan. 9:24a...To make an end to sins... Gal. 1:3-5
Dan. 9:24b...He would be holy... Lu. 1:35
Dan. 9:25...Announced to his people 483 years, to the exact day,
after the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem... Jn. 12:12-13
Dan. 9:26a...Killed... Mt. 27:35
Dan. 9:26b...Die for the sins of the world... Heb. 2:9
Dan. 9:26c...Killed before the destruction of the temple... Mt.
27:50-51
Dan. 10:5-6...Messiah in a glorified state... Rev. 1:13-16
Hos. 13:14...He would defeat death... 1 Cor. 15:55-57
Joel 2:32...Offer salvation to all mankind... Rom. 10:12-13
Mic. 5:2a...Born in Bethlehem... Mt. 2:1-2
Mic. 5:2b...God's servant... Jn. 15:10
Mic. 5:2c...From everlasting... Jn. 8:58
Hag. 2:6-9...He would visit the second Temple... Lu. 2:27-32
Hag. 2:23...Descendant of Zerubbabel... Lu. 3:23-27
Zech. 3:8...God's servant... Jn. 17:4
Zech. 6:12-13...Priest and King... Heb. 8:1
Zech. 9:9a...Greeted with rejoicing in Jerusalem... Mt. 21:8-10
Zech. 9:9b...Beheld as King... Jn. 12:12-13
Zech. 9:9c...The Messiah would be just... Jn. 5:30
Zech. 9:9d...The Messiah would bring salvation... Luke 19:10
Zech. 9:9e...The Messiah would be humble... Mt. 11:29
Zech. 9:9f...Presented to Jerusalem riding on a donkey... Mt. 21:6-
9
Zech. 10:4...The cornerstone... Eph. 2:20
Zech. 11:4-6a...At His coming, Israel to have unfit leaders... Mt.
23:1-4
Zech. 11:4-6b...Rejection causes God to remove His protection..
Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:4-6c...Rejected in favor of another king... Jn. 19:13-15
Zech. 11:7...Ministry to "poor," the believing remnant... Mt. 9:35-
36
Zech. 11:8a...Unbelief forces Messiah to reject them... Mt. 23:33
Zech. 11:8b...Despised... Mt. 27:20
Zech. 11:9...Stops ministering to the those who rejected Him...
Mt. 13:10-11
Zech. 11:10-11a...Rejection causes God to remove protection...
Lu. 19:41-44
Zech. 11:10-11b...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 14:7
Zech. 11:12-13a...Betrayed for thirty pieces of silver... Mt. 26:14-
15
Zech. 11:12-13b...Rejected... Mt. 26:14-15
Zech. 11:12-13c...Thirty pieces of silver thrown into the house of
the Lord... Mt. 27:3-5
Zech. 11:12-13d...The Messiah would be God... Jn. 12:45
Zech. 12:10a...The Messiah's body would be pierced... Jn. 19:34-
37
Zech. 12:10b...The Messiah would be both God and man... Jn.
10:30
Zech. 12:10c...The Messiah would be rejected... Jn. 1:11
Zech. 13:7a...God's will He die for mankind... Jn. 18:11
Zech. 13:7b...A violent death... Mt. 27:35
Zech. 13:7c...Both God and man.. Jn. 14:9
Zech. 13:7d...Israel scattered as a result of rejecting Him... Mt.
26:31-56
Mal. 3:1a...Messenger to prepare the way for Messiah... Mt. 11:10
Mal. 3:1b...Sudden appearance at the temple... Mk. 11:15-16
Mal. 3:1c...Messenger of the new covenant... Lu. 4:43
Mal. 4:5...Forerunner in the spirit of Elijah... Mt. 3:1-2
Mal. 4:6...Forerunner would turn many to righteousness... Lu.1:16-17

Depends if we're talking a loving god or a conceited one

Conceited is pretty simple - praise 24/7

@xpaddintonx: That's circular logic. How do you know the bible is true?

...and why are you spamming the same crap on every forum you can find on the internet?

This is poor witnessing imo

Either you can think for yourself and speak of the Good News, or you can copy and paste. In 2015 regurgitation doesn't carry you far

I've seen this, or a similar, enormous list of so-called prophecies elsewhere - unsurprising since you copy-pasted it from a web site without saying so. When you have a list that starts with things like Jesus had a mother being fulfillment of a 'prophecy' that women bear children, you've lost me right at the beginning. Prophecy lists this vast invariably include references that do not say what is claimed to be said, deliberate or accidental translation mistakes, self-fulfillment etc.

Regardless, even without looking at any of them, all I need do is defer to the Jewish people that consider the scripture you showed in the 'source' column to be God's word, yet they reject everything you have to say about Jesus being Messiah.


More generally, copy/pasting huge lists and unsupported assertions from elsewhere is not conducive to discussion, is it?

This doesn't strike me as an honest examination. Of course Jewish people would reject Christ, that doesn't really tell us a lot, other than there is no consensus.

Rejecting a model based on the fact that others reject it doesn't really help you understand the weaknesses or strengths of the model you're rejecting, and you can reject virtually any ideology by deferring to another group.

Why do you say "Of course Jewish people would reject Christ"? The Jewish prophets anticipated (and still expect) a messiah. When Jesus came along, was there anything in principle that would cause the Jews to reject the claim out of hand? Rather, it is my understanding that the messiah-apparent was compared to the prophecies and he did not meet the standards.

A lack of consensus doesn't say much of itself, I agree, but at the time, there was a consensus! I would consider the Jews to have had expertise in determining whether their own prophecies had been fulfilled.

Again, you’re rejecting the claim by deferring to the Jews that reject Christ, while ignoring those that do not. The debate is two-sided.

Wouldn’t it be more honest to say that you reject the prophetic claims because you reject the divinity of Christ to begin with, instead of supposing that a specific group of people has a closer proximity to the truth?

Ok, let me backtrack a bit. I don't think I said anything about what I did or didn't accept or reject, or any reasons why. You would be quite right though, rejecting a claim because someone else rejects the claim is not an "honest examination". To be honest, when I was first describing the Jewish people that rejected Jesus, I was talking of his contemporaries of the time, when there were no Christians to speak of, and it really was rather one-sided!

What OP presented was a bloated list of prophecies, of which I expect most non-fundamentalist Christians would consider to be overflowing with some frankly quite silly items. I'm not interested in examining such a list to try and find something of genuine interest, and OP doesn't care enough to do more than copy/paste.

In a real, two-sided discussion that might take place today, the question of why the Jews reject fulfilled prophecies is still key. Whatever Christians believe about individual prophecies, still needs to address this. So it seems like it's a fine question to start out with, even to someone as disinterested as OP.


I don't think so, honestly. Couldn't prophecies be made about mere mortals? I just find that on the rare occasions that specific prophecies get discussed, there is nothing particularly prophetic about them (in general terms). Nothing specific, no clear place or name, no clear date, no clear before and after. Prophecies should be the most powerful weapon in the theists religion, if they are real, but in my view they end up so disappointing that the claim ends up hurting the claimant rather than helping.

Having said that, if clear prophecies are made and fulfilled, all you really have is a particularly interesting event that happened.

And since you mentioned the divinity of Jesus, don't the Jewish prophecies state that the messiah will be an ordinary person, not any kind of deity or demi-god? If that is true, it bodes less well for the modern Christian (at the time, Jesus arguably did not declare himself to be divine, right?).

Part of the problem when speaking about "Jews" is that they can be both, a race and a religion, so it sometimes get confusing. So when you say Jews reject prophecies, I see it as a bit of a tautology, where "Jews" = Judaism, or not entirely correct, since not all people born in Israel do reject Christ as the Messiah.

To be fair, maybe I misunderstood your point, and I wasn't suggesting you reject the prophecies one by one, only that there were Jewish people who accepted the Christ as Messiah, and still accept it today. To them, the prophecies line up.

I think for you first statement, if you accept prophecies, you will naturally accept the divine, so most people reject them going when they don't believe in God, which is what I thought you were doing. Which is fine by the way, as long as you admit it.

The problem I see with prophecies (outside of religious debates), especially ones that apply to Jesus, is that it's impossible to know when the literature itself was written. Some have argued the prophecies were written retroactively to give the illusion of fulfillment.

The other is that the same could have been done when writing about Jesus. The stories could have been written by closely following the prophecies needed to be fulfilled.

I'm not an expert on Biblical prophecy, never interested me that much, the only one that I thought was interesting was Syria being destroyed, since the conflict in that region was heating up a short while ago when the US wanted to start with Iran, but it seems to have quelled for the time being.