But he is so pleasant.

Look. We do have some things we agree on. Me, too.

Hehe.

This is exactly what I mean. You do not possess critical thinking or logical thinking skills. You contradict yourself in your first sentence.

"You have made no valid points except with a small minority, so i would say more."

No valid points= 0 valid points agree?
Except = some = valid point!

Again in my own personal experience
You are just ignorant to the fact that "Even a small minority that I have talked to are narrow minded/ blinkered. Fact!

The point you are trying to make is that my sample is not big enough? Frankly again it is only your pov! For arguments I specifically stated from my personal experience "the believers I spoke too" how do you read you read between the lines and think that I meant EVERY believer???

For the record also, you attacked first. You explicitly made a personal attack which you state " You are talking out of your ass" Simply because you disagree with me on sample size! And the fact that you are making stuff up and are not critically thinking through my post first.

Don't forget that boy!

One more point! All rational BELIEVERS think god EXISTS. (They don't just believe it, they know it) Otherwise they would not be rational. From countless people I have encountered to the multitude of programs I have watched on the topic, I can conclude that BELIEVERS are narrow minded people who do not consider the possibility that god does NOT EXIST!

I do not know who you have been speaking too, but if they acknowledge that god might not exist and believe anyway, they are not being rational at all. In fact those people are called atheists and not believers!

Well here are you points i commented on.

This is wrong. If you put some in there its kind of ok... But you didn't. So its a generalization which is wrong. And very wrong from my experience.


This is wrong. You are again including all theists. Ive know many that do take on the words of atheists. If your ranting had some in it, ok.


Was i being nitty. Sure...But i think it needed to be pointed out.

This is fine. But it makes me think you dont talk to many believers if you have never know one. There are more then a few on the forum which will say this. Research better.


Cool.


No my first point is what i said. You are making generations which are wrong.

My other point was not a point it was an observation. I observers it doesn't sound like you talk to many theists if you have never met one who would say there is a possibility they are wrong. I could be wrong but i dont think so.

Nah your first post i quoted had noting about personnel experience.

As for my second post and yours. No ****. Its why i said i dont think you know many theists if that has been your experience.
You came into this forum loud and proud about treating people like an ass. Thought that is the way you want to be treated.

Your whole post is about that I made generalizations and did not include most or some theists!! Geez are you done!!!! You believing loser!

Why don't you counter my 2nd to last post?
Always just cherry pick what suits you. You should try and stand on your own two feet, instead of relying so much on the help of others!

You have to be pretty blinkered in the first place to read my initial post and assume I was talking about every theist on the planet. If this does no seem illogical to you then I do not know what kind of evidence you need in order to prove that your logic is flawed. You literally nitpicked that I left a word out, then just assumed that I meant all theists. Why did you not simply ask me what I meant instead of throwing around personal attacks.

Whatever boy! I am wrong and you are right. That is what you want to hear right. The only way a child like you will be happy, if everyone just concedes to you!

Yup my point was that your points in the post i quoted are off and way off imo. That should of been pretty clear to someone with of a big of brain as yours.

And yes i should of been done on that first post but you didnt let it be done so here we are with me explaining it again.

Also im not a believer.

I think ill just be done with you. You are way to smart for me. Others will have to contest your brilliance since i cant.

And lol at the always.....in our first encounter and two posts . Whos old account are you?

And for the record you are WRONG!

You got additional information regarding my initial post. You even commented on that specific quote. How on earth can you know that I am talking out of my ass, if you weren't even there? That is what I want to know!

And I stand by my post when I say that you contradicted yourself, when you said that I made no valid point EXCEPT with a few. If you do not understand that that is a contradiction then I don't know what to say!

I am not into making generalisations as that does not make any sense. Nobody can put all theists in the same boat. The fact that you now want to make it out to be that way because you misread my initial post, is to get your point across about making generalisations, which I already know is pointless.

You can admit that you made a mistake, it is not the end of the world.

Yeah were done. Gl with your posting.

Before nitpick comes out of the woodworks. That last part is not written correctly. I worded it pretty badly.

If people believe god might not exist but believe in him anyway then we should conclude that that person is not being rational. ie If you believe that leprechaun's might not exist but believe in them anyway, you are deluding yourself and are not being rational.

What I meant to say further was that people who are on the fence and think that god might not exist are in fact atheists (agnostic). The same applies though, if they are deluding themselves I feel they are not being rational.

Agree or Disagree?

I only read some of the thread, but when it comes to religion, I have always had the OPs question first. How do we know?

I don't think we do, but I really don't think we can deny that there is something bigger. I was atheist for a time and denied it, but, how can you? You cant just have something from nothing. I know they say we started from a carbon atom or something of that nature, but where did that come from? Stuff just cant APPEAR from absolutely nothing.

Just the inner workings of the human body is so amazing and so beyond truly what we could create. There is just so many amazing things to point out and are unexplainable. Even scientists use the explanation "The God Factor", because its unexplainable.

I don't think ANY religion has it right for sure, and none of the books are exactly right, but I don't think we can deny there is something out there. And I don't say that because I want some magical place to go to when I am dead. I don't say that because it makes me sleep better at night. I say that because I believe there is something out there, but like everyone else, I want to know what and why, which is something we might not ever truly know.

However, I just had this discussion with someone I trust more than probably anyone on this earth, and he had a moment with God or a realization, and his story is pretty convincing and this is not a guy that would be easily converted or who is weak minded, or impressionable. I dont believe the tons of hypocrites and false prophets out there preaching for your money, spreading lies, or judging you and trying to control you. I believe in someone I trust whole heartedly and is a good man.

I think its natural and a good thing to question EVERYTHING, and this is one of those questions that seems to come up time and again when it comes to religion. I will read some more of this thread because I am still searching for answers and opinions, but I believe in something.

Where did God come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

500 years ago, the earth HAD to be the center of everything, but that was proven wrong.
400 years ago, we thought that the solar system was rolling around on a 2D disc, but that was proven wrong.
200 years ago, the stars HAD to be a vast blanket outside of our solar system, but that was proven wrong.
200 years ago, material HAD to made of earth, fire, water, and not atomic elements, but that was proven wrong.
100 years ago, the Milky Way HAD to be the full extent of the Universe, but that was proven wrong.
100 years ago, space and time HAD to be two different things, but that was proven wrong.
100 years ago, the atom HAD to be the smallest unit of existence, but that was proven wrong.

Long-winded but I think what I'm trying to say is that our philosophical understanding of the universe, particularly in the last 2,000 years, has been full of arrogant and failure. We are infants in our understanding of the universe and how it functions. Several hundred years from now (which is a miniscule amount in the life of our Universe and even our existence), humans will look back at our present day struggles to understand gravity, dark matter, the big bang, black holes, etc. and laugh at our ignorance. The CERN project will be looked at with the same nostalgic warmness that we put towards a butter churn.

I think one day, with the help of genetic and particle science, we will rise out of our infancy and start to begin to understand some of the very basic theories of the Universe. I would imagine looking back from that time that the concept of "something" coming from "nothing" will be something discussed as a matter of fact.

Regardless of ANYONES thoughts...mine, yours, his, hers....NO ONE knows for sure...and that is the only true fact of any of this really. How that can be argued is beyond me, because no one knows.

My thought is this though, if it makes your life or you feel better whether it be believing or not believing, then that is all that matters at the end of the day. I don't care if you believe or don't believe.

However, I don't like the ones that push their beliefs onto others, whether they be Athiest beliefs, or a religious belief. To me that is when it becomes a problem and that is plenty rampant on both sides of this fence. Whatever works for you works for you, but keep your nose out of the next persons business, beliefs, actions, and life period. That's the only way there can be harmony regardless of beliefs.

If my religion wants me 'to defeat my enemies with kindness', than I know my religion is the "real" religion.

“Defeat your enemies with kindness.”—Rumi- Fihe ma Fih

I read your post but have to disagree with you on some points. Firstly you point out that there is something bigger, which I really do not get! What exactly can't we deny?

You say you cant just have something from nothing but science has proved that all of what we see all the universe could of come from nothing. Look up Laurence Krauss "Universe from nothing"!

I think a lot of people that do believe in the supernatural do actually think they will go to some magical place, that might be one of the reasons they believe. I agree that it is very comforting but personally do not see it happening. We'd first have to create heaven, lots of man hours involved in such a project. People will need to get paid, it's big operation, I am not sure it is even doable!

There might be something out there, but is it automatically god? Could just be another intelligent civilisation from another planet right? If for example they are a million years ahead of us in terms of technology and such, does that mean they are gods? If they have found ways to time travel, travel faster than the speed of light, are able to simply travel from one spot to another spot in an instance, does that make them gods?

If humans did not evolve from animals which I think a lot or most believers believe then we must of come from something else like god. I think that is another comforting thought and to some degree lessens the pain which is involved in accepting that you and I are nothing more than an advanced chimp. I think a lot of people can not handle the truth so they'd rather make up some silly excuse and think that we are made in gods image and are not animals.

It would also mean that humans came first and then god made animals after!

It is definitely good to question everything, have you ever questioned the above?
Whilst you might be right and there is something much bigger, I'd like to point out that if that is true than this place we call earth or our home must be the ****hole were they make all their jokes.

I kind of agree with you, that it is very comforting to simply believe god will takes care of us etc. He is doing an horrendous job at it in my opinion. Guess he's to busy raping and starving everybody to death, no time to actually help anyone!

Do you not think it can be detrimental to that person who just wants to believe in say for example magical elves. I mean it can be very comforting and all but am pretty sure it cant be good for that person, to live in such an unrealistic life?

It gets even worse when children/people stop living in the real world altogether because their fantasy world has gotten the best of them. Do you really think nobody should step in and say something?

I can't understand how someone can believe in the authority of the Bible. It's one thing to believe in God, in Jesus, etc., but how can someone think the Bible has no errors at all and it was inspired by God? How can someone think the Bible hasn't anything not true in it when it's so easy to modify texts and to compose them?

For example look at these prophecies from Matthew:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/pr_list.html

(the skeptic annotated site isn't a perfect site, it has a lot of fallacies, but it also has many good points)

Here are some jew explanations about Messiah and why Jesus wasn't the jew Messiah from the Old Testament: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation3.html

I can't see too much logic in Christianity compared to other religions (which may be false but at least have logic) and this is mainly because it's linked to the Old Testament.

People believe the damnedest things. Most of the time they seek to affirm their beliefs rather than challenge them.

This causes actions like frowning upon using the wrong spoon for desert or burning heretics at the stake.

And that's what it all boils down to.
If there is only 1 truth and it is constant and unchanging as it must be.....what does that make everything else?

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