Honest question to anyone who believes in God. - Page 8 - Religion, God, and Theology

CanadaLowball · 10-15-2010, 08:27 AM

worst thread

luckyme · 10-15-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

Quote:

A belief is a psychological state - you can choose what you say you believe, you can choose what you investigate and how rigorously you test your beliefs, but you can't just snap your fingers and choose to change your beliefs to contradict the evidence available to you.

Yes.

ok, I'll try again.
How come I can change my belief that the evidence ( I've at times seen things incorrectly) shows I should check with other people if the sky is blue but I can't change my belief that it is blue? Why are some 'conclusions' inviolate?
How come I can change my belief about what I should say ( because the evidence shows some approaches work better) about the sky being blue but I can't change my belief that the evidence shows the sky is blue? Why are some 'conclusions' inviolate?
How come ...

Hardball47 · 10-15-2010, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

So anything you believe now but aren't certain of - you could decide to believe it's negation?

Why would you believe in an uncertainty? If I gave you a proposition and asked you to believe whether it's true or false, and you decided to say, "well, it looks like this is 70% true." If asked later, would you say, "About that, I think it's 30% false"? It would be a strange way to phrase it, right? What you're saying isn't wrong or inconsistent.

I'll pose some questions to you:

Do you choose what to think about? (I'm not talking about random thoughts that pop into your head, but say for example, you're reading an article and ruminate on it when you're done.)

Do you believe in free will?

TheMagnet · 10-15-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megenoita

Tultfill, the problem I have in answering your question is the same some other Christians will feel--we don't feel it's even remotely possible to have a world like the one we do with any explanation other than God. From my studies, I've never found an adequate accounting for the universe as we see it, human nature, morality, laws of thought, or virtually anything in reality. It's like C.S. Lewis said, something like, "I believe in Christianity in the same way I believe the sun rises; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." If God didn't exist, the universe couldn't exist-earth couldn't exist and mankind couldn't exist. "God" is written all over creation, including human nature, the laws of morality, the laws of logic and the laws of nature. This is why one poster asked what it would take for you to admit you're not you--denying reality as we see it is the first step for many Christians to disbelieve in God. If we were truly like the animals, having only instincts, and if we didn't ask questions like "Is there a God?" or any other philosophical question, that would be a good start.

From your studies of cosmology, psychology, sociology, philosophy and evolution, you couldn't find anything to account for it? Really? It's all there.

What Christian documents explain the things you have listed?

bunny · 10-15-2010, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardball47

Why would you believe in an uncertainty?

I can't help it, that's the point. I believe some things and don't believe others. There are some of those things I believe which I'm not certain about.

Quote:

If I gave you a proposition and asked you to believe whether it's true or false,

I can't believe on command - that's the whole point.

Quote:

and you decided to say, "well, it looks like this is 70% true." If asked later, would you say, "About that, I think it's 30% false"? It would be a strange way to phrase it, right? What you're saying isn't wrong or inconsistent.

I wouldn't answer like this, so I'm not convinced I've made what I'm saying very clear if you think this kind of answer is consistent with my previous comments.

Quote:

I'll pose some questions to you:

Do you choose what to think about? (I'm not talking about random thoughts that pop into your head, but say for example, you're reading an article and ruminate on it when you're done.)

Sometimes.

Quote:

Do you believe in free will?

Yeah in a 'dualistic determinist' way (or something - madnak had a good label for it).

bunny · 10-15-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckyme

ok, I'll try again.
How come I can change my belief that the evidence ( I've at times seen things incorrectly) shows I should check with other people if the sky is blue but I can't change my belief that it is blue?
Why are some 'conclusions' inviolate?
How come I can change my belief about what I should say ( because the evidence shows some approaches work better) about the sky being blue but I can't change my belief that the evidence shows the sky is blue? Why are some 'conclusions' inviolate?
How come ...

I don't really understand the first example. With regard to the bolded one (though I'm not sure I understand that one either):

I'm not arguing beliefs don't change - you can change all of those beliefs, but not by force of will. If the evidence leads you to change your belief about what you should say - you will be unable to believe that you shouldnt change what you say.

Do you think you can change your belief that the evidence shows the sky is blue? Nobody I've met has ever claimed to be able to do so, even if maintaining that belief is a choice - their examples are always about how they choose to believe some proposition - coincidentally being what the evidence tells them is true.

luckyme · 10-15-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

I don't really understand the first example. With regard to the bolded one (though I'm not sure I understand that one either):

I'm not arguing beliefs don't change - you can change all of those beliefs, but not by force of will. If the evidence leads you to change your belief about what you should say - you will be unable to believe that you shouldn't change what you say.
.

ok. one more try.
My point is not about changing beliefs or not, just the dividing line you drew about where they reside.
I'm saying it's beliefs all the way down. ... look at my examples again, in that light.
your claim was -

Quote:

you can choose what you say you believe

but not something else. I'm pointing and pointing to the fact that what you say we can choose is a belief itself, yet you say we can't choose to change those.
( you'll see why I hold this "belief" concept of mind in such low regard )

bunny · 10-15-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckyme

ok. one more try.
My point is not about changing beliefs or not, just the dividing line you drew about where they reside.
I'm saying it's beliefs all the way down. ... look at my examples again, in that light.
your claim was - but not something else. I'm pointing and pointing to the fact that what you say we can choose is a belief itself, yet you say we can't choose to change those.
( you'll see why I hold this "belief" concept of mind in such low regard )

I appreciate any effort - but I'm really not getting it.

When I said "You can choose what you say you believe." I meant you can utter the words "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God" and you can choose which sentence to articulate. What you can't choose is which of those is true - you either do believe or don't and what you say doesnt affect that underlying reality (not in one 'snap of the fingers' moment, anyhow).

My claim is that you believe 2+2=4 - you cannot do anything about that (again 'in one go' I have conceded to you previously that you can freely choose to initiate a course of action or a set of 'operating procedures' which ultimately results in a belief changing and am not retracting that). You can deny the belief, affirm it or ignore it but the belief persists.

luckyme · 10-15-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

I appreciate any effort - but I'm really not getting it.

When I said "You can choose what you say you believe.".

I replied .. "you can choose to believe you want to say that?"

I'll insert into you original claim -

Quote:

A belief is a psychological state - you can choose what you say you believe, you can choose what you investigate and how rigorously you test your beliefs, but you can't just snap your fingers and choose to change your beliefs to contradict the evidence available to you.

A belief is a psychological state - you can choose what you believe you want to say you believe, you can choose what you believe you should investigate and how rigorously you believe you should test your beliefs, but you can't just snap your fingers and choose to change your beliefs to contradict the evidence available to you.

Those are beliefs you have, you are claiming you can choose to change them, while you are claiming we can't choose to change beliefs.

( as I've been known to say, "beliefs.. phoooey" )

bunny · 10-16-2010, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckyme

I replied .. "you can choose to believe you want to say that?"

I'll insert into you original claim -

A belief is a psychological state - you can choose what you believe you want to say you believe, you can choose what you believe you should investigate and how rigorously you believe you should test your beliefs, but you can't just snap your fingers and choose to change your beliefs to contradict the evidence available to you.

Those are beliefs you have, you are claiming you can choose to change them, while you are claiming we can't choose to change beliefs.

( as I've been known to say, "beliefs.. phoooey" )

These examples are beyond me. What exactly is the belief you think I am claiming we can choose to change? Is it:

What I believe I want to say I believe

Because I don't think I can change this (and I dont see why nesting so many verbs is useful). It seems to me that this means

2+2=4 is the belief
I want to say I believe 2+2=4
I also believe I want to say I believe that 2+2=4

I can't change the first (it's arisen from my understanding of maths).
The second is a desire not a belief.
I can't change the third (it is impossible for me to want something without believing that I want it).

To be honest I am just bemused at this point. I think belief isn't voluntary - you may think it is, but to say that I have somewhere claimed to be able to change some belief seems weird. Could you list some beliefs you think you are able to change by force of will?

luckyme · 10-16-2010, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

To be honest I am just bemused at this point. I think belief isn't voluntary - you may think it is, but to say that I have somewhere claimed to be able to change some belief seems weird.

Unanswerable when formed that way but, ah, ok, I believe I see where the problem is. a step back for clarity --
Would you say this is an correct statement ( even if incomplete perhaps) -
To believe X is to have the opinion that X is true?
"I believe it is raining" means "I think the statement 'it is raining' is a true statement' ".

bunny · 10-16-2010, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luckyme

Unanswerable when formed that way but, ah, ok, I believe I see where the problem is. a step back for clarity --
Would you say this is an correct statement ( even if incomplete perhaps) -
To believe X is to have the opinion that X is true?
"I believe it is raining" means "I think the statement 'it is raining' is a true statement' ".

Thanks. Yes, I think that's correct.