Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > Other Topics > Religion, God, and Theology

Notices

Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2009, 03:17 AM   #1
jcx
adept
 
jcx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Eastasia
Posts: 1,039
Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

This forum, which is ostensibly about a wide range of religious discussion, features mostly atheists on the offensive making constant demands of believers to "prove" what cannot be proven (hence the term faith). So be it. I'd like to take the opportunity to fire a return salvo with the hope a meaningful discussion can result.

The author Theodore Beale, under the nom de plume Vox Day, has written a book called The Irrational Atheist. I have done a search of the forums and have not seen the book discussed here (if so, kindly point me in that direction).

The book's stated mission is to "Dissect the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens." It also deals with Dennett and Onfray. Written from a secular perspective, it does an effective job of exposing common atheist arguments such as religion is the greatest threat to humankind. Here's a sample from the chapter "The Case Against Science":

The five major religions of the world...have approximately
4.85 billion adherents, representing an estimated 71.3 percent
of the world’s population in 2007, and they have been around
for a collective 11,600 years. During the vast majority of those 116
centuries, the world has not been in any danger of extinction from
weapons of any kind, nor has the human race been in serious danger
of dying out from pollution, global warming, overpopulation, or anything
else. Despite 116 centuries filled with hundreds, if not thousands,
of diverse religions, all competing for mindshare, resources,
and dominance, the species has not merely survived, it has thrived....

...In the last sixty years, science has produced a veritable
witches’ brew of potential dangers to the human race, ranging
from atom-shattering explosive devices to lethal genetic modifications,
designer diseases, large quantities of radioactive waste and
even, supposedly, the accidental production of mini black holes and
strangelets through particle collider experiments....

...So, in only 3 percent of the time that religion has been on the scene,
science has managed to produce multiple threats to continued human
existence. Harris’s extinction equation, which states that S+F=(extinction), is not inherently wrong. But his conclusion is, because it is Science, not Faith, that is the factor in the equation that presents a deadly danger to Mankind.

The book also discusses supposed atrocities committed in the name of religion like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. It points out that the vast majority of wars have had little to nothing to do with religion. Of particular interest to Christians and Atheists alike is chapter 15, which discusses why a benevolent God would allow bad things to happen.

Anyway, there will be plenty to discuss later. The book is available in hardcover at various bookstores and Amazon, but you can download the ebook for free here:

http://irrationalatheist.com/freedl.html

I lurk and occasionally post on the author's blog, Vox Popoli. If you think he is full of **** he wants your rebuttal. He claims no one has put forth a good counter argument yet, so have at it:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/

I'll be away from the forum tomorrow but look forward to discussing this book with anyone who has read it, since I think it makes a lot of good points.
jcx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 03:25 AM   #2
centurion
 
spord's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Berlin
Posts: 134
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

If I want to know if god is "benevolent" I will ask some starved torture victim in Congo, not some culturally inbred western sack of fat who accuse those who disagree with him of being mentally challenged.
spord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 03:35 AM   #3
banned
 
Stu Pidasso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hiding from Mat "Slasher" Sklansky
Posts: 12,373
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

If you think about it, science insures man's survival or man's extinction. Religion is relatively benign in comparison.
Stu Pidasso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 03:53 AM   #4
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SABR42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: between situations
Posts: 14,950
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
...In the last sixty years, science has produced a veritable witches’ brew of potential dangers to the human race, ranging from atom-shattering explosive devices to lethal genetic modifications, designer diseases, large quantities of radioactive waste and even, supposedly, the accidental production of mini black holes and strangelets through particle collider experiments....
So science is bad because of atomic bombs. Gotcha.

Science is also responsible for modern medicine and technology. Science is the reason the life expectancy of a person has doubled since the middle ages. Science is responsible for feeding most of the world's population. Just about everything you do in your daily life would be impossible without science (unless you are Amish or live in the jungles of Amazon or something).

You want to live in a world without science? Go right ahead. I'll take the atomic bombs given all the other stuff science has given us. You can choose to have either all of it or none of it, or else you're a hypocrite.
SABR42 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 05:19 AM   #5
old hand
 
nittyit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,535
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Beale's views on equality, women's rights, and illegal immigration have been controversial. He describes himself as "openly and avowedly anti-equalitarian" and calls equality "totally absurd" and "an empirical fiction" because it "demonstrably doesn't exist in any material sense." In his commentary on abortion, he has written that calling a feminist a feminazi is "an insult to National Socialism". He has called women's rights "a disease that should be eradicated." He also wrote that according to the traditional Judeo-Christian ethic only a woman who is not entertaining the possibility of sex with a man can be considered a "wholly innocent victim under this ethic" should she be raped, and that rape is no better or worse than extramarital sex from a moral perspective because "Christianity knows no hierarchy of sins."
Sounds like a nice guy to me. Praise ye Lord!
nittyit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 05:32 AM   #6
old hand
 
nittyit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,535
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
The book's stated mission is to "Dissect the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens." It also deals with Dennett and Onfray. Written from a secular perspective, it does an effective job of exposing common atheist arguments such as religion is the greatest threat to humankind.
His book opens with a "Dedication"

This is for those who walk The Way,
Weak and stumbling, poorly shod.
May they find strength in every day
To persist on the path to God.

This is for those still lost in night,
Angry, doubting, trapped in strife.
May they find answers in the Light
That leads to the eternal life.

This is for those who fall for Christ,
Faithful, fearless before Cain.
May they find courage to suffice
And know that they die not in vain.


Secular my arse....
nittyit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 05:40 AM   #7
old hand
 
nittyit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,535
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
I’m not asking you to respect my beliefs. Why should you? Maybe
you think I’m insane because I believe that Jesus is coming back
one of these days, but does my insanity actually affect you in any
material way? Is my religious madness really all that much more out
there than my faith that the Minnesota Vikings will win the Super
Bowl someday?
Oh boy... "Sorry mum... even though you have terminal cancer and you are in extreme pain 24 hours a day. You must suffer because it's unethical in a Christian society to end your life on your own terms.... God will take you when the time is right. Until then don't eat, have a morphine drip and wait for the call."

Last edited by nittyit; 02-06-2009 at 05:53 AM.
nittyit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 06:30 AM   #8
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tame_deuces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,499
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

No evidence supports verbose burning bushes, talking snakes and all the cool miracles are hearsay. The bible is proof merely that religion might lead to a book. No Christian accept similar accounts as proof of other religions - this fundamental lack of honesty tells us there is no rigidity or internal validity in Christian claims.

Done. This guy was too easy as he can't survive his own arguments.
tame_deuces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 06:50 AM   #9
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 585
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
the accidental production of mini black holes and
strangelets through particle collider experiments....
i chuckled

seriously through, i wish these anti-science morons would either live like the armish or stfu,

what has science done for humanity? everything
Trogdor! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 08:02 AM   #10
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Don't forget. You are loved by God.
Posts: 18,896
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Powerful post OP.

Just shows what a little knowledge in the wrong hands can do. Guess God was right about that Tree of Knowledge.

Knowledge without the 7 spirits of God is just terrible:
http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-spirits-God.html
Splendour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 09:37 AM   #11
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 17,351
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

I guess I grant the author's argument that scientific power is dangerous, but even if I agreed that it is more dangerous than beneficial (which I don't) I'm not sure what he proposes to do about it. Countries which forgo scientific development would be in thrall to those who do not, so we can't simply give it all away.

If he's proposing religion as a cure for the moral waywardness of science, then that's pretty laughable. I hate to think what would have happened if you'd dropped modern weaponry into the lap of say, the soldiers of the Crusades.

Quote:
It points out that the vast majority of wars have had little to nothing to do with religion.
Dubious. Most of these arguments run something like "The Crusades were actually sparked by the destruction of Christian property", say. But the heart of the problem is in-group morality; the idea that it's OK to attack people that aren't members of your own group. Religion is one of the major sources of this tribalism. There are others (political ideology and nationalism) which have probably caused more wars than religion. But these are now in decline (there is broad agreement that capitalism is right and barriers between nations are starting to come down, eg the EU) whereas religion is still in ascendancy.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 09:46 AM   #12
Pooh-Bah
 
All-In Flynn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 5,483
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
This forum, which is ostensibly about a wide range of religious discussion, features mostly atheists on the offensive making constant demands of believers to "prove" what cannot be proven
No it doesn't. We do ask for evidence. Evidence is not proof. The majority of interesting discussions revolve around internal inconsistencies and contradictions in theistic worldviews and moral schemata.


Quote:
Harris’s extinction equation, which states that S+F=(extinction), is not inherently wrong. But his conclusion is, because it is Science, not Faith, that is the factor in the equation that presents a deadly danger to Mankind.
Science doesn't kill people, people kill people. Is the knife evil, or the hand that wields it? 'Science' is never a motivation for wanton destruction - faith has proven so in the past, and continues to do so today.

Quote:
The book also discusses supposed atrocities committed in the name of religion like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades. It points out that the vast majority of wars have had little to nothing to do with religion.
So we can overlook the ones where religion was a factor. This Vox Day guy's either retarded, or is trolling.


Quote:
Beale's views on equality, women's rights, and illegal immigration have been controversial. He describes himself as "openly and avowedly anti-equalitarian" and calls equality "totally absurd" and "an empirical fiction" because it "demonstrably doesn't exist in any material sense." In his commentary on abortion, he has written that calling a feminist a feminazi is "an insult to National Socialism". He has called women's rights "a disease that should be eradicated." He also wrote that according to the traditional Judeo-Christian ethic only a woman who is not entertaining the possibility of sex with a man can be considered a "wholly innocent victim under this ethic" should she be raped, and that rape is no better or worse than extramarital sex from a moral perspective because "Christianity knows no hierarchy of sins."
Leaving aside the atavistic monstrousness of his views on rape, what about 'venal' and 'mortal' sins? Hierarchy right there, yo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
Done. This guy was too easy as he can't survive his own arguments.
QFT.
All-In Flynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 09:52 AM   #13
grinder
 
Malcolm X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 577
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Science in the sense that the OP implies is the same as knowledge. This knowledge led to he invention of literally everything. A lot of which was invented in the 16000 years you spoke of. So you can't simply decide to invent and advance for 16000 years and then stop because religion is beginning to seem stupid to most people (fwiw I don't believe the 70% of believers is a true amount, a lot of people will claim to be Christian when really they aren't - me included).

Also, if you look at the state of the world I'd say that religion is a main cause for a lot of our problems, not science.
Malcolm X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 10:23 AM   #14
banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Don't forget. You are loved by God.
Posts: 18,896
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm X View Post
Science in the sense that the OP implies is the same as knowledge. This knowledge led to he invention of literally everything. A lot of which was invented in the 16000 years you spoke of. So you can't simply decide to invent and advance for 16000 years and then stop because religion is beginning to seem stupid to most people (fwiw I don't believe the 70% of believers is a true amount, a lot of people will claim to be Christian when really they aren't - me included).

Also, if you look at the state of the world I'd say that religion is a main cause for a lot of our problems, not science.
Well Christians believe God is no liar. That's a personal choice we make.

Through the bible he tells us that the World was perfect and we had unity with God so we didn't even need knowledge.

Knowledge can be both good and bad. So in the Garden of Eden we got tricked into trading the totally good thing we had for something less. Then we had to rely on that something to survive.

Knowledge by itself is never enough. It has to be tempered like steel by the other remaining 6 spirits of God.

Last edited by Splendour; 02-06-2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason: correct typo.
Splendour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 11:00 AM   #15
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Our House's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NOT Reading GoT Books
Posts: 22,838
Re: Homework for Atheists/Ammo for Christians

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
The five major religions of the world...have approximately
4.85 billion adherents, representing an estimated 71.3 percent
of the world’s population in 2007, and they have been around
for a collective 11,600 years
. During the vast majority of those 116
centuries
, the world has not been in any danger of extinction from
weapons of any kind, nor has the human race been in serious danger
of dying out from pollution, global warming, overpopulation, or anything
else. Despite 116 centuries filled with hundreds, if not thousands,
of diverse religions, all competing for mindshare, resources,
and dominance, the species has not merely survived, it has thrived....
Just to show you the retarded logic this guy is using, imagine that each person alive today had their own religion. Would it correct to say that these religions were around for a collective 6.5 billion years and then base the rest of your argument on this fictitious 65000000 centuries? Sheesh.
Our House is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive