That makes it a punishment from God, not a natural consequence of her action.

According to your religion, only because God creates (and allows) those consequences. A child chooses not to be careful when walking near a balcony? She trips and falls and must spend the rest of her life without the use of her legs. A man is foolish enough not to give up his wallet to a mugger? He bleeds out on the pavement, with multiple stab wounds. A woman, fleeing from the city she has spent her whole life in, panicked and desperate, unthinkingly glances behind her? She is utterly destroyed.

Sure, God could have prevented these things, but it's important that actions have appropriate consequences. (A Nazi scientist tortures thousands of people? He lives out a comfy retirement on a Pacific island. Well, I suppose there are always exceptions. We wouldn't want God to break a sweat now, would we?)

You do like to generalize a lot Splendour. It should be pretty clear by my badly written posts that I'm way over my head even posting in rtg or on the internet, well maybe 4l ,nvg and youtube are ok. I've never taken philosophy or even read a book on philosophy (probably should do the latter any recommendations, not the bible though to many of those contradictions) 2yrs community collage liberal arts ftl. If reincarnation is real hope I can come back as a combination of madnak and Blarg so I can have the smarts, write the words and own all of ya. All of my criticisms of the bible come form the morals you believe your God gave me, don't kill do onto others stuff, that is how I judge him. So if anything it's your God who needs to take the blame not philosophy and the education system.

Not looking for perfection, just looking for him to not go around killing and inspiring others to kill in his name. He should probably rethink his stance on woman, slavery and a bunch of other things, but not killing would be a good start.

If Your God exist he seems to want the exact opposite. He even gave us a book so we can all be and act more alike.

i love how whenever it suits their argument, theists talk about how awful human beings are. sinful pitiful creatures that can only find salvation through gods grace (since we don't deserve it at all.) and if he sees fit to kill us all, well, we deserve it.

and then on the other hand, if it suits their argument, christians will talk about how they brought into the world the idea of the value of human life. this is a favorite of people like dinesh dsouza, always blabbering on about christianity's superior outlook on mankind, and its fighting for human rights. bullspit!!

you cant have it both ways. you cant portray us as the worst vile creatures with one breath, and with the next claim each and every life is sacred and worthwhile (just not worthwhile enough to be worth saving, amirite?)

You're missing a lot of context.

Lot's wife was told by angels not to look back. This is a direction from God himself. Obedience IS the protection. It always has been. This is actually one of the earliest examples of prophecy in the bible.

Throughout the bible when people obey the word of God's true messengers things fare well for them and when they think they can rely on themselves and buck God they usually end up in trouble.

God's will is without force if he can't enforce it.

It seems you want a powerless or impotent God.

Maybe you should read the bible because this is plainly a post meant to be contentious. Even most bible illiterates though know that there was a fall and human's nature today is not as God intended it.

Please don't direct posts to me any further. I get tired of reading God blaming posts. Staying in atheism is your prerogative.

The fallen nature of humanity is a tool use by the bible to make us feel unworthy of our life's and I don't blame your God for anything, he doesn't exist, i'm just pointing out his imaginary flaws.

My post wasn't meant to be completely contentious, some of it was but thats is what happens often on both sides in religious vs atheist debates, just tired of getting put into the prefabricated box Christians like to put atheist in. I was more then happy backing out of this thread until you and Jibninjas pulled me back in.

No prob or hard feelings though I wont direct any post to you tc.

No just cause he is all-knowing and has infinite power doesn't mean you can hold him to higher standards of morality and responsibility than a human silly.

I'm just not playing the tit for tat God is to blame game anymore because that's an approach from a flawed human perspective.

If you study the story of Lot you know Lot was entertaining angels. Everyone is very used to the symbolism and parables of the New Testament stories of Jesus and I just happen to think the Lot story is symbolic as well as literal. Its literal because they've found the 2 cities near the Dead Sea.

Its symbolic because it typifies the reaction of the world to God's messengers and that reaction is that in a fallen world almost always God's message is not received with the warmth and reverence it deserves. The world has killed and stoned many prophets, the Apostles and the blessed Saviour himself.

You just have to back the lens up a bit to realize the exact thing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah.

What actually happened in the OT can be summed up in this one passage that most people Christians and non-believers overlook:

Genesis 15 (CEV edition)

The LORD Makes Another Promise to Abram
7The LORD said to Abram, "I brought you here from Ur in Chaldea, and I gave you this land."
8Abram asked, "LORD God, how can I know the land will be mine?"

9Then the LORD told him, "Bring me a three-year-old cow, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a dove, and a young pigeon."

10Abram obeyed the LORD. Then he cut [b] the animals in half and laid the two halves of each animal opposite each other on the ground. But he did not cut the doves and pigeons in half. 11And when birds came down to eat the animals, Abram chased them away. 12As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and everything became dark and frightening. 13-15Then the LORD said:

Abram, you will live to an old age and die in peace.

But I solemnly promise that your descendants will live as foreigners in a land that doesn't belong to them. They will be forced into slavery and abused for four hundred years. But I will terribly punish the nation that enslaves them, and they will leave with many possessions.

16Four generations later, [c] your descendants will return here and take this land, because only then will the people who live here [d] be so sinful that they deserve to be punished. 17Sometime after sunset, when it was very dark, a smoking cooking pot [e] and a flaming fire went between the two halves of each animal. 18At that time the LORD made an agreement with Abram and told him: I will give your descendants the land east of the Shihor River [f] on the border of Egypt as far as the Euphrates River. 19They will possess the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaites, 21the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.


This Matthew Henry commentary somewhat illuminates what is happening:

Commentary on Genesis 15:7-11
(Read Genesis 15:7-11)

Assurance was given to Abram of the land of Canaan for an inheritance. God never promises more than he is able to perform, as men often do. Abram did as God commanded him. He divided the beasts in the midst, according to the ceremony used in confirming covenants, Jeremiah 34:18,19. Having prepared according to God's appointment, he set himself to wait for the sign God might give him. A watch must be kept upon our spiritual sacrifices. When vain thoughts, like these fowls, come down upon our sacrifices, we must drive them away, and seek to attend on God without distraction.

Commentary on Genesis 15:12-16
(Read Genesis 15:12-16)

A deep sleep fell upon Abram; with this sleep a horror of great darkness fell upon him: a sudden change. The children of light do not always walk in the light. Several things were then foretold. 1. The suffering state of Abram's seed for a long time. They shall be strangers. The heirs of heaven are strangers on earth. They shall be servants; but Canaanites serve under a curse, the Hebrews under a blessing. They shall be suffers. Those that are blessed and beloved of God, are often sorely afflicted by wicked men. 2. The judgment of the enemies of Abram's seed. Though God may allow persecutors and oppressors to trample upon his people a great while, he will certainly reckon with them at last. 3. That great event, the deliverance of Abram's seed out of Egypt, is here foretold. 4. Their happy settlement in Canaan. They shall come hither again. The measure of sin fills gradually. Some people's measure of sin fills slowly. The knowledge of future events would seldom add to our comfort. In the most favoured families, and most happy lives, there are so many afflictions, that it is merciful in God to conceal what will befall us and ours.

(As a theist I naturally accord God the right to judge all people because of his righteousness and justice and because of the common sense realization that only by his mercy can I be more than dust and ashes. I don't view death as a punishment but as the first step in the process of divine judgment because ultimately everyone who dies will face judgment so death as a divine punishment is in part an illusion. Anyone God ordered dispatched in the OT still faces a judgment and since there was no Christ manifested in the flesh it would have been a judgment on deeds. So I find the atheist tit for tats arguments against the OT have no force when viewed from a divine perspective. The only force they have is that they get the person making such an argument another mark in his sin column.)

But in regards to this particular story in one breath you talk about how God is omnipotent and should have stopped Lot's wife from being killed, and then turn around and say that God was probably wrong when he said the cities were completely evil, even though we are talking about an omniscient God.

being omniscient doesnt mean you cant lie

Im still confused how killing someone isn't the most extreme form of taking away free will.

I said that there were probably never any completely evil cities, and in order for your God to exist there must have been completely evil cities, thus your God probably doesn't exist.

I also suggested that, based on human nature, there is no way for a city to be "evil" in a manner such that full destruction of that city is consistent with an omnibenevolent nature.

I don't think Zeus was wrong in talking about Mount Olympus; Zeus was quite right, Olympus was his home. That goes without saying within the context of the narrative.

However, Mount Olympus probably never existed, and thus Zeus probably never existed.

Also, Zeus was not benevolent, because he raped. Rape is not consistent with a benevolent nature.

(Cue Zeus followers saying "but he had to rape her, he knew if he didn't Heracles would never have been born," or maybe just "Zeus knew she wanted it.")

Splendour, and others, you claim to have read the bible. Could you, then, write something here in Greek? Ancient Greek, too, which may be as different from modern Greek as Old English is from Modern English? And, really, BAD ancient Greek, reportedly?

Because unless you can read bad ancient Greek, you can't read the bible, you can only read an opinionated translation. One of many opinionated translations.

And if you think it doesn't matter, consider this: the idea that Mary, Mother of Jesus, was a virgin, is only an opinionated translation, not a necessary one. There's hardly a more basic claim of Christians than that Mary's conception was virginal, yet the whole idea is based on nothing more than a bizarre translation.

So, have any of you read the bible (in it's original form, bad ancient Greek)? Or are you just talking out of your ass when you make claims about what it says?

BTW, I don't really expect you to answer this, because that would entail admitting your ignorance of Christianity. And if you had that capacity, you'd also have the capacity to cease with the hatemongering-disquised-as-love that Christianity has degenerated into. And you have not as yet shown that capacity, although we all pray for you.

Well you're laboring under a misapprehension.

There's no requirement at all to have read the whole bible to be a Christian.

Also Paul said the Gospel is a simple message and to be presented in the language of the receiver.

You're miles ahead if you've read any version of it but its not required its just so critically important that people confuse it with being required. Also genuine Christians find it indispensable so it results in your kind of mistaken confusion.

If you remember Philip spent a shortwhile in the chariot with the Ethiopian and the Ethiopian was converted. He hadn't read the bible at all.

On what basis do you make this assessment? I would bet that the probability of a completely evil city is pretty good in the ANE. Especially when talking about OT standards.

I thought I answered that in the other posts. See the one about the coin flips in particular.

My point is that your analogy of the coin flips was not accurate. Continuing with the same scenario if I told you that I flipped a coin 10 times and they all came up heads, you would be inclined to believe me.

Depends on the circumstances. But "city" implies a population of at least 10,000. 10,000 coins flips? Not buying it.

that is assuming that the probability of each individual is 50%, plus that would also imply that the environment does not have an effect on the others percentages

i'm not buying it

Ramp it up to 99%. Fine with me, still basically impossible. And nothing that has ever been seen or documented before.

I'd say free will is limited appropriately by divine will. God made us because it pleased him. Not because it pleased us. We weren't existent so he clearly made us to live at his whim not the other way around. Still our freedom in him in this world and the next is better than our freedom on our own as a slave to sin.

nature made us, and it didnt please nature

I would respond but I would have to direct a post to you, woops I just did sry wont let it happen again.

Lol...you can post...just no "blame God" posts. I've read thousand of them and they're quite depressing because I've never at any time in my life been able to relate to them nor would I want to. Clearly people think they are somehow "educating" me but from my perspective that's not just an inconceivable idea but also a blasphemous one. Insulting God will never wake me up but it might be something you have to repent over later if you ever change your mind which is a possibility.

Not really because you make some assumptions that are very questionable.

Why should Christians take anything you say seriously when you accuse them of talking out of their ass, hatemongering, and ignorance? I suspect this is the real reason you don't expect an answer to your post.