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Old 03-21-2009, 12:14 AM   #1
Splendour
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The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

I saw an interesting show on Sodom and Gomorrah. It showed the archaeological sites of 2 Dead Sea cities: Bar edh-Dhra and Numeira which may be the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah. The show said both towns ceased to exist at the same time.

An extremely interesting point they made was that homosexuality may not have been the sin condemned but instead a failure to be kind to the poor and an assault on the sacred duty of hospitality was violated (Makes you wonder if in an ancient desert environment hospitality wouldn't be of huge importance).

The wiki and a Jewish site give further explanations:

http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclop..._and_Gomorrah/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomorrah

http://www.nd.edu/~edsp/babedhdrah.html

The show also explained that the incest episode of Lot and his daughters is believed to have occurred because they may have mistakenly thought the whole world had been destroyed and the daughters were afraid the human race might cease to exist.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:19 AM   #2
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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The show also explained that the incest episode of Lot and his daughters is believed to have occurred because they may have mistakenly thought the whole world had been destroyed and the daughters were afraid the human race might cease to exist.
I just read Genesis a few weeks ago, and anyone who read those words and came up with this interpretation is insane.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:28 AM   #3
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

Genesis 19 verses 31-32
31. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:49 AM   #4
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

Didn't Lot and his daughters go to another town that was guaranteed not to be destroyed?
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:54 AM   #5
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

I never thought i'd say this but splendour could actually have a point.

You can facepalm all you want but that quote certainly seems like it could be interpreted as she says.
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:29 AM   #6
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Didn't Lot and his daughters go to another town that was guaranteed not to be destroyed?
They went into a cave in a neighboring area. The exact number of miles wasn't mentioned.

The show actually showed a church that was built around the 6th or 7th Century A.D. that was on a cave. There's speculation it could be Lot's cave but they really aren't sure.

One famous archaeologist (Albright) started looking for Sodom and Gomorrah then got spooked and thought if it was great evil to leave it undisturbed would be better.
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:41 AM   #7
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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They went into a cave in a neighboring area. The exact number of miles wasn't mentioned.

The show actually showed a church that was built around the 6th or 7th Century A.D. that was on a cave. There's speculation it could be Lot's cave but they really aren't sure.

One famous archaeologist (Albright) started looking for Sodom and Gomorrah then got spooked and thought if it was great evil to leave it undisturbed would be better.
Zoar was the place...

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Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.)

By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
He flees to the cave after going to Zoar.

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Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:12 AM   #8
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Genesis 19 verses 31-32
31. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
How did Lot get a hard on when he was drunk? I wish I was capable of such a heroic feat. Pity about the incest thing...
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:57 AM   #9
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

If the OP opinion articles are correct and homosexuality wasn't the sin it makes you wonder if the mistaken interpretation aided humans in any way. Christ himself never specifically addresses the question but he does give his famous "he who is without sin cast the first stone" teaching.

Now I'm wondering if homosexuality is some complex combination of inborn error of metabolism, genes and environment. I'm not an M.D. so I guess I'll have to research that. If it was an error of metabolism or genetic then social pressure against homosexuals would have been a viable method to ensure the more dominant trait of heterosexuality was upheld since sexuality is not a static trait. For thousands of years man has had famines and plagues and with a weak reproduction rate the human race might never have survived. Europe under the bubonic plague lost something like a third of its people.

See page 147-148:http://books.google.com/books?id=WuJ...um=1&ct=result
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:29 AM   #10
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
An extremely interesting point they made was that homosexuality may not have been the sin condemned but instead a failure to be kind to the poor and an assault on the sacred duty of hospitality was violated (Makes you wonder if in an ancient desert environment hospitality wouldn't be of huge importance).
So God punished the people of Sodom and Gomorrah for not being kind to the poor. And his punishment was killing everyone including the poor... God has a strange sense of kindness and hospitality. If I was poor in Sodom and Gomorrah id prefer the coldness of the town folk to Gods love.

Last edited by batair; 03-21-2009 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:46 AM   #11
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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How did Lot get a hard on when he was drunk? I wish I was capable of such a heroic feat. Pity about the incest thing...
Don't sweat it, drunken sex is overrated imo. Nothing like waking up to find out you hit it with your daughter, I guess. Kickin' it Old Testament style!
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:48 PM   #12
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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So God punished the people of Sodom and Gomorrah for not being kind to the poor. And his punishment was killing everyone including the poor... God has a strange sense of kindness and hospitality. If I was poor in Sodom and Gomorrah id prefer the coldness of the town folk to Gods love.
I don't think you read the links I provided or considered who Lot's guests were.

Hospitality toward strangers was a great virtue in ancient Hebrew times. They considered that they could be entertaining angels.

For all we know God was readying Israel to receive both his prophets and Jesus Christ and all of God's other messengers while laying a foundational teaching about compassion, sharing and generosity of spirit.
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:29 PM   #13
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Originally Posted by Splendour View Post
An extremely interesting point they made was that homosexuality may not have been the sin condemned but instead a failure to be kind to the poor and an assault on the sacred duty of hospitality was violated (Makes you wonder if in an ancient desert environment hospitality wouldn't be of huge importance).
I think it was more than just that, and here are a few reasons why:

1. Chapter 18 of Genesis tells us there were fewer than 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom.

2. At least two of the links show us this passage from Ezekiel:

Quote:
Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

—Ezekiel 16:49-50
Notice the part where is says "did detestable things before me." This doesn't tell us what those detestable things were. However, I suspect there was more to it than just the things you mentioned.

3. Here is another passage:

Quote:
When they had not yet retired, and the people of the city, the people of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, the entire populace from every end [of the city]. And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them."

Genesis19:4-5
This is another clue that the people of the city were evil. Also, some Bibles say "we may have relations with them" instead of "we may know them" in case anyone isn't clear about what that verse might mean. There is more to this than just homosexuality.
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:37 PM   #14
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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I think it was more than just that, and here are a few reasons why:

1. Chapter 18 of Genesis tells us there were fewer than 10 righteous people in the city of Sodom.

2. At least two of the links show us this passage from Ezekiel:



Notice the part where is says "did detestable things before me." This doesn't tell us what those detestable things were. However, I suspect there was more to it than just the things you mentioned.

3. Here is another passage:



This is another clue that the people of the city were evil. Also, some Bibles say "we may have relations with them" instead of "we may know them" in case anyone isn't clear about what that verse might mean. There is more to this than just homosexuality.

Nice post. The more you read and think about the bible the more the context weighs in and you start to see there's so much below the surface. We really do "see through the glass darkly". So if we over rely on our leaders/preachers we miss alot. Always better to let the Spirit do some leading.
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Old 03-21-2009, 05:19 PM   #15
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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How did Lot get a hard on when he was drunk? I wish I was capable of such a heroic feat.
me too.. im just "pushing rope" when wasted
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Old 03-21-2009, 05:43 PM   #16
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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I don't think you read the links I provided or considered who Lot's guests were.

Hospitality toward strangers was a great virtue in ancient Hebrew times. They considered that they could be entertaining angels.

For all we know God was readying Israel to receive both his prophets and Jesus Christ and all of God's other messengers while laying a foundational teaching about compassion, sharing and generosity of spirit.
Lucky there weren't 10 innocent young children or baby's in Sodom or it might of screwed up Gods plan.

Last edited by batair; 03-21-2009 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:20 PM   #17
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Lucky there weren't 10 innocent young children or baby's in Sodom or it might of screwed up Gods plan.
Thanks for the derail.

Its imperative for the atheists at all costs to make the bible look bad.

Dawkins agenda demands it. Atheism is a belief system because it attracts a lot of fanatics who take action by posting on the internet. If I were an atheist I would never politicize atheism by posting. I'd walk off, live my life and never look back.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:27 PM   #18
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

I have never read Dawkins. Just think Sodom and Gomorrah are good examples of the evil nature of the God of the bible.

Id love to live my life and never look back and as soon as religion allows me to I will(not holding my breath).

I wont post in this thread anymore no prob. Sorry for the derail but when you post about Sodom and Gomorrah you have to expect it.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:28 PM   #19
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Have never read Dawkins. Just think Sodom and Gomorrah are good examples of the evil nature of the God of the bible.

Id love to live my life and never look back and as soon as religion allows me to I will.
What's it doing to you?
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:32 PM   #20
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

That's a big list that would derail the thread even more.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:36 PM   #21
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Thanks for the derail.

Its imperative for the atheists at all costs to make the bible look bad.

Dawkins agenda demands it. Atheism is a belief system because it attracts a lot of fanatics who take action by posting on the internet. If I were an atheist I would never politicize atheism by posting. I'd walk off, live my life and never look back.
Wow, this post is bad on so many fronts.

1) Just because someone points out glaring contradictions from the Bible that you conveniently ignore or go to great lengths to justify, doesn't mean they're "trying to make the bible look bad."

2) Talking doesn't make anything a belief system. Something is a belief system upfront or it isn't. If the core component for a belief system (e.g. a SYSTEM of beliefs) isn't there to begin with, it can't just be created out of thin air by those who have an actual belief system throwing you into a group of "those who disagree with some of my in-group's beliefs."

3) You wouldn't walk off from anything if you were the one being discriminated against and someone's unfounded beliefs were being pushed on you. Just imagine how your stance would change if, say, the Muslim creation story was battling for placement in science classrooms instead of yours.
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:37 PM   #22
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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That's a big list that would derail the thread even more.
As someone who doesn't mind derailing threads, I'll handle it. (see above)
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:21 PM   #23
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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1) Just because someone points out glaring contradictions from the Bible that you conveniently ignore or go to great lengths to justify, doesn't mean they're "trying to make the bible look bad."
Those were not big cities. You guys almost make it sound like God destroyed the city of Los Angeles.
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Old 03-21-2009, 07:34 PM   #24
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Those were not big cities. You guys almost make it sound like God destroyed the city of Los Angeles.
A sin is a sin.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:09 PM   #25
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Re: The History Channel on Sodom and Gomorrah

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Lucky there weren't 10 innocent young children or baby's in Sodom or it might of screwed up Gods plan.
Who says they were innocent? Did you know any of them?
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