Sure I did, in so many words. You just didn't think it necessary to read carefully before responding.

Scripture says so, which is what I choose as my standard of evidence.

The following clarification replaces possibly unclear earlier statements about "success" and similar:

God set it up for Adam to make a choice. Success or failure depended on Adam. It ended up a failure, but neither outcome was inevitable before Adam freely chose. God's foreknowledge of that choice did not cause what it predicted, even if that prediction was guaranteed to be correct.

You keep saying that, yet logic is lacking. For example:

Non sequitur. Impossibility of free choice does not follow from the existence of a fixed future if that future was fixed by the choice itself. Maybe you'll get around to explaining precisely why you disagree with this eventually. Until then, you are effectively conceding my point by not addressing it.

You're reversing cause and effect again. The free choice (independent variable) is the cause, and the foreknowledge (dependent variable) is the effect.

See previous.

I'm not discussing any fables. And nothing is a fable because you say so. If you got proof something is a fable, then show it.

You're free to believe that. Though maybe you should try for a better showing in the question at hand before broadening your range of logically scant conclusions.

Psalm 147:4-5 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Thanks

Then how can you say no-one has any way of knowing?

That's clearly untrue. The outcome was inevitable because God knew before Adam "chose." If that didn't make the outcome inevitable, maybe you can explain how Adam could have surprised God by deciding the other way.

The "cause" is omniscience AND omnipotence. God is responsible for all events because he sees them in advance and none can occur unless he allows them. And again, this returns to the paradox of God not being able to change things he foresees.

See above. I've said the same thing before.

You still haven't explained how Adam could have chosen anything besides what God knew he was going to "choose" before he "chose" it. Forget cause and effect, just explain that to me.

And you're ignoring omnipotence again. The whim of an omnipotent being can be the only independent variable here.

Can I prove talking snakes can't exist? No. Can I prove I'm not a brain in a vat? No.

There is no proof for anything, only overwhelming evidence. Your positive claim is that God exists. Prove that first. Then you can prove to the Hindus that their gods aren't real and the Sruti texts are not purely divine in origin.

Maybe instead you can answer the post you avoided, and explain how your so-called free and informed decision was based on God lying to a couple of clueless innocents, then allowing a talking snake to tell them more lies, when in fact they would have had no way to tell lies from the truth anyway.

Maybe you can also finally explain why, when God has the power to do anything and everything, he facilitated the demise of his own perfect world by providing the means for it to be ruined, then lying to Adam and Eve, then allowing Satan to help him, then not stopping Adam and Eve from screwing things up, because somehow their ill-informed "choice" was more important than the prevention of untold human suffering.

It is self-evident to me that the difference between God's and man's minds is too great for us to infer his motives. This will remain self-evident until someone suggests a plausible way of doing so.

You keep repeating this. Yet the causality your "because" implies is in dispute.

Why does foreknowledge of a choice mean it can't be free? I already explained how it still can be free, namely by the choice being the cause and the foreknowledge being the effect. Without simply reasserting your conclusion, what is your objection to this reasoning?

Adam could not have surprised God, but that doesn't mean what you think it means.

Seeing and allowing something to happen are not sufficient for responsibility. One also has to have the *intent* of making it happen. Accordingly, Adam was solely responsible for the fall, since it was the product of his free and informed choice.

Adam could not have chosen other than what God expected him to, because his free choice (the independent variable) *determined* God's foreknowledge (the dependent variable). How many ways do I have to explain this before you step up to the plate and offer a logical explanation of why you think it's wrong?

You don't have that either.

It's a belief, not something I can prove. As is your denial of God's existence.

Now you're assuming more things that not everyone accepts and would need many posts to clear up. How about finishing current business first? Like logically describing an inconsistency between foreknowledge and free will without simply reiterating what you believe.

Then you can't say they're good.

Because there's only one possibility.

Omnipotence. See below.

If you have the foreknowledge and the power to prevent a disaster and you don't, you are responsible for the disaster no matter who or what its "cause" is.

For starters it's circular.

It seems that given a 100% mechanistic determinist universe (in which even quantum 'randomness' is not truly random), infinite understanding would imply a perfect knowledge of the future. However, some would argue that "free will" is not compatible with this conception of the universe. If this is not one's conception of the universe then the argument could be made that infinite understanding does not translate into perfect knowledge of the future or certainty regarding what "free choices" will be made.

God foresees himself making adam and eve
God makes adam and eve ( can he opt out of this? surely not, since what he forsees must come true)
God forsees himself offering adam a choice, and foresees the choice that adam makes.
Again, he cant opt out of this, because what he foresees must come true, since he is omniscient.

This implies that god has no free will , he has to act as he has foreseen.

God exists out of our space-time continuum. So, to say that
God "foresees" something and then acts on it is not the right way of
looking at it.

God "foresees" things, because he exists outside of time.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Yeah man, he told me.

Didn't think so.

Concerto, how similar is heaven to earth prior to Adam's original sin?

Does heaven have:

1. Free will
2. A way to corrupt it in a similar manner that "perfect" earth was corrupted by adam?

Thanks!

And that singular foreseen possibility is the *result* of a free will choice between multiple possibilities.

Not necessarily. Responsibility for a disaster only transfers to you if had the duty to intervene to prevent it. This does not apply under conditions where the cause of the disaster is the victim's free and informed choice within the province of their ownership, as was the case with Adam.

Distinctions between past, present and future are not limitations to God. He exists outside of spacetime (having created it himself) and so can see your entire world line all at once, including all your free will choices.



Since the content of God's foresight of his choice is determined by the choice itself, the bolded part merely says God can't chose other than what he chooses for a given choice (which we already knew since omnipotence only means the ability to do everything it is possible to do, as opposed to the logically impossible), not that he can't make that choice freely.

Actually, it does not, for the stated reasons.

Foresight of a free choice does not force the choice, rather the free choice forces the foresight. Meaning, whatever free will chooses at the moment of the choice, that determines the content of the foresight, not vice versa.

Yes. No.

Adam corrupted his own domain. On the other hand, heaven is God's domain, so we would not expect a similar way to corrupt it.

I can see what your saying, but
1pm: god forsees that he makes adam and eve at 2pm
2pm: he doesnt make adam and eve

the above isnt possible. therefore, it seems like its not a free choice.
Its no big deal anyway

So if there is free will in heaven, is there the capacity to sin? If yes, what happens if you sin in heaven? If no, why (or if your answer is "i dont know", then whats your best guess)?