sorry for starting the nth thread on free will lately but i think this idea is separate enough it deserves it's own thread.

despite many differences between christians, one thing that seems to unify them is prayer. i remember one of the christian posters here in RGT saying that he is a christian because of his experiences with prayer.

there are different opinions on the efficacy of prayer, but all seem to agree that at least god is listening, so asking for help is basically a freeroll.

but, if god answers prayers, does not this erode the concept of free will?

a friend of mine recently posted something similar to this on facebook:

let's assume she is correct and she was given this job by the creator of the universe.

at a minimum, this obliterates the free will of the hiring manager who phoned her to offer her the job.

if that hiring manager takes advice from anyone, a spouse, friend, co-worker, their free will is also highly compromised.

most of us have heard of the butterfly effect. one small and mundane event can have a very complex chain reaction. most of us have subtle interactions with hundreds of people every day, and any one of those people could end up seriously affecting the course of your day (someone bumping into you and spilling your coffee, someone cutting you off in traffic, someone kindly holding a door open for you).

i think that one could successfully argue that the free will of hundreds or thousands of people had to be suspended so that god could award that job to my friend.

seems to me that if god answers prayers, we are nothing more than pawns in a grand chess game that god is playing against himself.

if you were raised in the house 1 block down the street then your life would have been radically different

where your parents decided to live is effecting your free will more than anything

or if you decided to wake up at 10:01 instead of 10:00 there would have been a ripple effect through the whole universe

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Concerning the OP, at some level I agree with you. I consider prayer something that produces internal effects. As in most things, I do not think that Christians hold a universally consistent view of prayer. But I fully acknowledge that many do hold the view you have presented.

I think it makes sense to start here and say I don't think this is true, given how free will is typically understood, provided that we're talking about "taking advice" and not someone directly coercing the hiring manager. Without getting into too much detail, in zumby-style compatibilism the hiring manager acts with free will in the same way that a court of law would declare the decision to have been made freely. In libertarianism, the decision is an act of free will, despite any advice, because metaphysically speaking she could have acted otherwise. In the incompatibilist deterministic view, there is no free will and the question is moot, but there would likewise have been no free will if no advice were given. Both the advice and the hiring were determined.

This is correct if you interpret the tweet to say that the person believes God intervened in the world and directly caused your friend to get the job, and you define freedom in an incompatible way. At the very least it's not possible both that the hiring manager's decision is metaphysically free and for God to have intervened.

There's a lot of different ways a Christian could go with this though, I think.

1) Libertarianism is true, but sometimes God overrides free will.

Which would seem to invite a re-hash of the problem-of-evil threads in which the sanctity or goodness of free will are taken by Christians as answers to those arguments. There's certainly all kinds of additional issues that could be raised about how/when/why God chooses to intervene and when not and all that.

2) Argue for some compatibilist/determinist version of Christianity. (i.e find a Calvinist?)

3) Argue that to the extent the friend believed that God directly intervened that they are wrong. Does that lead to Deism? Or perhaps in some convoluted way you could preserve the idea of Divine Intervention but require that it not override human free will. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

Without trying to resolve any of that, I also think there is a value to the mindset contained in that tweet that is tangential to the main question you are asking. That is, I think there is value both to the individual and to others in giving thanks, and in having an attitude towards life that is inclined towards humility, gratitude, and having a focus outside one's own self-interest. I expect that in writing the tweet, the person was more engaged in an expression of that cultural aspect of their faith (in which that attitude is seen as a central expression of Christ's teaching) than in thinking through all the metaphysics anyway

One Christian view that makes some sense is that God answers prayers be giving the petitioner insight or advice on what to do or advice on how to cope with obstacles rather than directly intervening in the events themselves. Then it is up to the petitioner to use his free will to act on his advice. in the case of the job hunter, He didn't get her the job. He may of told her to be happy about whatever decision was made; she would get it if it was right for her and if not, other opportunities would open.

This is only true if the hiring manager could not have done otherwise (in whatever sense you understand that to be, whether in a compatibilist sense or libertarian sense).

A common point of confusion in free will conversations is that influencing factors do not necessarily force outcomes. A simple probabilistic example should suffice. Let's say there was a 50% chance she got the job without prayer. But if prayer changes the probability from 50% to 60%, does that negate the free will of the hiring manager? What about 99%?

I like this answer.

you guys just using "Free will and not free will" as a false dichotomy and gods universe just doesnt fit there

heres how i understand it so far (of course im wrong because im not god i dont understand ANYTHING )

its a lot more complicated than you guys make it

theres the flesh which always reaps corruption no matter what because of the unmitigated lust

you have the law written on your heart which provides a buffer for the flesh

theres the spirit of disobedience, people lead by the spirit of disobedience are doing satans will but within gods parameters, this is everyone who isnt lead by the spirit of god

theres the spirit of god, people lead by the spirit of god are just plainly doing gods righteous holy and pure will for gods good pleasure, it says he ordained good works for us that we should walk in them

theres the hardening AND softening of heart, which god only does appropriately as a judgement or as a mercy


the whole flesh/spirit of disobedience combo is a tough one
i imagine that the flesh is always the main running operating system and the spirit of disobedience only comes in bursts. he will put a thought in your head at the right time or something to keep you from god but hes not always operating in you 24/7. Maybe im wrong.

but god as well might come in bursts and those are opportunities to become a child of god
and i guess you got to yield to the calling???

i dont know im just making this up

like your flesh is still "you" albeit inherently corrupted (inherently because it isnt lead by god since the fall separated the two)
possible to be good on its own sometimes ( do not even the heathen give good gifts to their kids)

god makes all things work together for good for his children though thats one thing thats clear

Clifs:

lol just being honest
gods got it all figured out theres no need to worry about this stuff

you either trust god what he says or you trust men

you know what
god might use angels to plant thoughts in people that are like a sovereign intervention like OP is mentioning where he would make the store manager hire the christian girl

i dont have a scripture to support this though

i dont think god really cares if this will change the course of nature since there isnt really a course of nature except gods plans

so ya theres all kinds of thought planting and stuff in that realm

why do you say free will or no free will

theres free will AND a bunch of other stuff and balancing acts going on but god is giving you if anything POSITIVE free will, he is leaning you towards him if anything luring you in earnestly

hey guys what subforum is 'ATF' ?

i need to go there so i can deliberately get myself banned

Nvm found it theres my post


It was nice knowing you all

~~~

My prayers have been answered.

seems like an odd thing to say. remember, my assumption is that god gave her the job. that is the believer's assertion. i'm not interested in discussing a puny god that can only bump someone from 50% to 60% or 99%.


...


sal, the hiring manager, sat quietly at his desk, frozen in deep contemplation. he picked up jamie's resume for what felt like the 50th time and read over it again. with a deep sigh, he set it back on his desk, and took a final glance at tonya's application.

"you've been thinking about this for two days," said barbara, sal's assistant. "you need to make a decision. we're out of time. the development team is drowning, we need to bring someone in by the end of the week."

sal began stroking his goatee. "you're right. i need your help, barb. i've got a serious case of choice paralysis. they're both such strong candidates."

"right," barb replied.

"on one hand, jamie's got a recommendation from the all-knowing all-powerful supreme ruler of the universe. that's strong. but tonya. she interned at google...google! GOOGLE, BARB!"

Praying for yourself is so freaking horrible that if I prayed I will pray for the death of anyone who prays to get a ****ing job or win a sports game when so many die and are living in horror daily while the only problem you have is a new job, new car, etc.
Be happy god gave you the new job and 20 other people didnt. Thanks to you now 4 people were killed since they had to steal to survive, 5 people are abusing drugs and 12 kids have no place to live.
Thanks to you selfish bitch. How happy are you now?
That would have been my response tweet

So... your question about free will and prayer answering boils down to you making an assumption, and then objecting to the implications of that assumption.

Edit: Meh, I'll say slightly more. Rejecting your assumption because it's a silly way to try to have a meaningful conversation and instead using the idea that God increased the chances of her getting a job:

* Would it be inappropriate to "praise" God for the assistance?
* Is it incorrect to say that #prayerworks?

why? you make it sound like a god that can do anything is some kind of weird idea. every christian i've ever known would have no problem with the idea that if god wanted someone to have a certain job, they would get that job 100% of the time.

i think it's much more bizarre to think of god as someone who can try his hardest and fail at something. do you really mean to say that the christian god could want and intend to install a certain person at a certain job and not succeed?

no, i think you're talking about a different god

No. It's not a weird idea. I'm just pointing out that there is more than one way to understand it.

Would they also all say that it required a complete overriding of "free will" in order for it to happen? Probably not.

For example, could it be possible to conclude that the person in question is the most qualified for the position? Do Christians not continue to give God the glory when that is the case?

My point here is that you've conceived your question so narrowly that it appears you're trying to create a major issue where there really isn't that big of one.

Let's back the question off a bit and just talk about things in general. Can God intend for a person to do good? Does that mean that the person has no option but to do good?

You've got some ideas bound up in "intention" that I don't think you've fully understood.

Maybe the hiring manager asked God which one he should hire, and prayed about it. Then what?

i hope they would, because it seems obvious to me that it does!

how could god achieve specific outcomes on earth without messing around with people's thoughts and actions?


sure, if you're saying that god did not answer her prayer and she's falsely giving credit to him, i won't disagree with that.


seems like a major issue to me! RLK agrees with me, so i must be on to something! how else can god achieve certain outcomes on earth without messing around with people's thoughts and actions?



i dunno, i'd prefer to talk about the god that answers prayers rather than the impotent god who hopes for the best but can't get anything done.

Again, there's a difference between influencing decisions and overriding them.

Who said that the person being the most qualified is not God answering a prayer? Again, you've narrowly conceived the problem, which is leading you to create problems where they don't exist.

Again, there's a difference between influencing decisions and overriding them.

You're welcome to do that. But you need to be aware that you're structuring your complaints in a way that is drifting further and further from "mainstream" theology.