God: Free will being incapable of doing evil.
Satan: Free will being incapable of doing good.
Human: Being who is only evil because of free will.

Essentially true by definition. Evil is what opposes God.

I haven't found that in the Bible. Got a chapter and verse?

Well yeah. How could humans do evil otherwise (see above definition)?

But why do you even want humans who do evil? Why is it essential for God to create evil people with free will when he could have just created good people with free will?

If God has free will and can only do good, that's enough to disprove the notion that you need evil for free will to exist. We don't even have to get into the whole Satan thing (although I personally think it's a logical abomination).

EDIT: pony slow.

People with free will are not inherently good or evil. They become one or the other by the choices they make.

I think you need to reread his question you quoted.

ok, so why is the subset of "bad" choices so large? why does the ability to rape need to be in there? why does the ability to murder need to be in there? i could go on, but please start with those.

also, youll need to explain how people are not inherently good or evil, when the doctrine of original sin states that people are inherently evil. but more importantly, God knows that humans are inherently evil, so why is the ability to do good/evil important to him? in the end, the amount of good or evil a person does has no bearing on their eternal salvation, so the ability to do bad is just a way to **** up everyone's life on earth and make us miserable.

That doesn't help any. A useful post would have included an explanation of what you are talking about.

For me, the only answer I find somewhat logical is that God wants to see what happens when good faces evil. He wants to see if he really created something productive or if he should release another flood of water to wipe out the current progress and start over with even better people/animals.

The problem then is that he isn't all-knowing. Which he is. So we have to find another answer.

Maybe, he didn't create the universe for himself. Maybe he created it for us to enjoy. He gave us free will so that we can experience a rich life, with ups and downs, with heaven as a reward for acknowledgement and humility in life.

I hope you understand the question better by reading my post above. I realized I was too short with you, but was almost complete with my answer when I did.

I don't know, nor would anyone who can't reverse-engineer God's creation expect to know that.

See previous comment.

See previous comment.

Cite chapter and verse for the doctrine you're referring to, and we'll work from there.

I don't know, nor should anyone who doesn't understand God's knowledge and intent expect to know that.

Cite chapter and verse for the doctrine you're referring to, and we'll work from there.

does not God create us in His image, and with the ability to reason? Should we not use this reason to *reason* about who God is? Or should we just assume God is who He says he is and give him the benefit of the doubt. You'll have to excuse me if I find no compelling reason to do that. (i'm guessing you do because of some personal conviction or experience? if not, please explain)

if you do not hold to the doctrine of original sin or that one can not be saved by works, then there is not much to discuss.

Its really pretty simple. He wants to be loved. Thus He created us to be able to choose to love Him or to choose not to. To do right or do wrong. I mean majestic angels worshipping u 24/7 is pretty sweet and all but like us He wants something more real.

Oh and pretty sure Satan is capable of doing good. He's not the opposite of God obv.

these are not synonymous, nor are they as tightly coupled as you want them to be.

as i said, it seems clear from Christian theology that God cares much more about choosing to love Him. One can love Him and live a life of doing much wrong and much right, and in the end those actions are less important than choosing to love him, would you not agree?

Regardless, one does not need to believe in or even acknowledge God in order to do good or evil, and doing evil does not mean you are rejecting God considering plenty of people, both theist and atheist, have done much evil. The same can be said about good.

He does.

Maybe to some extent. On the other hand, the mismatch between human reason and the nature of God is so vast that our first use of reason in that undertaking should be to recognize that our prospects for significant success are just about nil.

Another word for giving God the benefit of your doubt is faith. And yes I suggest you do that, though it's entirely your choice of course.

I'd like to go back to the Satan thing. If Satan is capable of doing good, but chooses not to every time...

1) Doesn't that mean he doesn't have free will?
2) If you disagree with 1, what is it about Satan's free will that makes him choose evil EVERY TIME? Does he lose every coin toss and defy math or something?

And the opposite goes for non-fallen angels. What is it about their character that chooses good every time? Are they the lottery winners of coin tosses?

None of this stuff makes any sense to a thinking person. Either free will is BS or what the Bible claims is BS. There are no other options!

Free will allows for freedom whether it be good or evil.

This is why God heals amputees, right? He wants them to have the freedom to move all of their limbs.

Your failure to imagine any other possibilities than your own when making blanket statements never ceases to amaze me.

Agreed.

Though 'freedom' really is the 'ability to choose the good' and sinning is an abuse of freedom. This is why those who are virtuous are more free than those who aren't virtuous.

If God wanted us to have that kind of freedom, he should have given us the ability to teleport around invisibly... after all, God wants us to have that freedom to teleport invisibly right?

God wants us to be free to choose the good over the evil, to love with a love that wouldn't be as pure if he were to force us to. He wants us to be like Him in his love, and free will allows us to choose this.

Ahh, I see. You don't believe PHYSICAL free will is important. Fine. What about those people who are mentally incapable of exercising their mental free will? Psychopaths, sociopaths, homosexuals (!) etc. Why has God not restored their capabilities to "normal"?

God doesn't really have free will

The Bible says that God turns the hearts of some men cold - And who are we to question what it is he does with his creation?

To me this says that WE’RE NOT IN CONTROL. And I think a lot of people have a hard time accepting that we’re not in control. Oh boo-hoo you lost an arm or boo-hoo your family got blowed up. Well guess what, **** like this has been happening to people since God made hominid a Man.

It’s all part of the Plan, Man.

You were never supposed to be perfect right off the bat. Doesn’t life show us that practice makes perfect? All you’re supposed to get from this craphole is the humility to accept the FACTS THAT ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE and give the authority to something greater. Cause God knows We sure don’t possess it.

That's pretty cold there, big erf. Boo hoo ur family got "blowed up"? I'd like to see u say that to the face of anyone who's actually been through such a tragedy.

Indeed, that's what I was getting at.

Again I think this just takes us back to the original question of why a population of good people with free will cannot experience a rich and enjoyable life. If evil is necessary for a rich and enjoyable life, then heaven cannot be a rich and enjoyable experience since it lacks the evil that you are postulating as necessary.