Thanks for the thought provoking input Orp. I agree with what you pointed out regarding a causality of beliefs/actions. IME Christians firstly hold beliefs that stem from theological positions (ie the bible says so). Any descriptive claims about gender roles would be after the fact to sort of make sense of what God has already dictated.

I know some really smart and capable married Christian women that try to embody the biblical outline of gender roles. I think for well meaning Christians (both men and women) it is about trying to live out what God has ordained, not necessarily explaining why it is so.

In your opinion:

Can it be explained?

Does it need to be explained?

In an ultimate sense the answer is no. Why did God ordain circumcision for the Israelites? We can speculate but we will never find an ultimate answer. If God wanted penis' to function better or differently why did He not make them so initially?

The scriptures indicate there is symbolism attached to circumcision, we should remove the flesh physically which directs us to the spiritual putting off of the flesh (aka sinful nature). From a biological health point of view I don't think circumcision provides substantial benefit over the "stock" penis.

Therefore IMO even God himself views his directive for circumcision as arbitrary. How the Israelites respond to God's directives speaks to the quality of relationship.

If the Israelites (or Christians) try and come up with descriptive claims after the fact of why circumcision is better than not I think that misses the point completely.

Even if it were proved that circumcision causes more infections and is worse for overall health the Israelites would still have an obligation to circumcise if they want to honor God as their authority.

Connecting this back to gender roles...

Even if it were proved (which it may be I dunno) that women are better leaders/decision makers etc. that doesn't change what God has ordained. Therefore Christians that seek to submit to God will attempt to obey his directives regarding gender roles.

to summarize the above... God said it, therefore if we acknowledge God's authority we should attempt to adhere to those directives.

If we don't care about God's authority then we can do whatever we see fit and that will also reflect what our attitude is toward God.

As is so often the case the real question is a question of intention not action.

Cool. I didn't know that term.

Well said. I typed out a long response with some other questions, but decided against it, it seemed too much like I was putting you on the spot, or trying to incriminate you, or some such.

I'll ask a safer question, since you're game to answer, and I like where your head is at:

What would you say to people who object that it is impossible to know "what God said", since Christians all believe different things about virtually every one of God's percepts, including gender-roles?

It sounds very nice, but really most of the time I think people just cling to these things because "that is how it was and that is how it is supposed to be". Mainstream scriptural interpretation in Abrahamic has changed in almost every aspect imaginable since the scriptures first saw light, which to me is obvious evidence that Abrahamic religion's scriptural basis is arbitrary at best.

Or to put it simple terms: In the scriptures God's relationship with those who speak on his behalf is often strenuous. Out in the real world, he pretty much always agrees with his clergy. Makes you wonder.

If you want to put me on the spot or incriminate me thats fine too. I don't come to RGT because people are nice I think it is interesting to have my views challenged and explored.... just say what you think.

There is a great diversity of opinions and therefore whatever we conclude is "true" I think it is vital we hold our beliefs in humility. As MB would say, "What if you are wrong...". Statistically speaking we should acknowledge that the chances are high our theology is often incorrect.

There is a big difference between saying it is "impossible" to know God's thoughts and " it is very difficult" to know God's thoughts. A difficult task may be worth continued diligent effort whereas an impossible task is not worth embarking on.

I concur, in many cases people are simply perpetuating what has been normalized. In this case I don't know how much religion is a factor as compared with culture in general.

Interpretations have changed dramatically over time I agree. Therefore if one is approaching the scriptures as a source of truth one should be very careful.

This is insightful. IME modern Christians assume implicitly that "God is on our side" and supporting our various endeavors. However, when we look at how God has related with humans in the past it is often tumultuous and difficult. Therefore when we set out to speak for God we should seriously consider the possibility that we have no idea what we are talking about.

I prefer people be friendly. If one can't be friendly, I lose interest in examining different views. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I value friendliness higher than other things.

I agree, and I also think that some things are more important than others. I like to call some of these issues, "negotiable" truths. Gender roles are certainly negotiable, as are most of these disputed tenets. Christ being divine, on the other hand, is a non-negotiable.