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Ego & Identity:  Who am I? Ego & Identity:  Who am I?

01-07-2015 , 05:57 PM
I have some stray thoughts that I hope will coalesce through discussion.

I hope to find some common ground among theists/atheists regarding our understanding of ego and identity. Please watch the below video and comment (ignore the religious overtones).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm2f15VYmzw

My thoughts:

As we live we build identities. For example, I have grown to think of myself as an intellectual. Now that I have formed this self image I need to protect it. If someone criticizes my intelligence or ability to think critically I will be offended.

Similarly now I am a Father so part of my identity is wrapped up in being a dad. Social norms dictate I need to ensure I am a good father.

You can fill in the blanks here for your own person. Maybe you are a science major and have built you identity on being knowledgeable of the sciences.

If you have difficulty pinpointing where you have built your identity think about what criticism would hurt/anger you the most. For most of us we allow our egos and self made identities to become inextricably wound.

I want this thread to be tangible and not just throw around mumbo jumbo terms.

One real life example is the hyper defensive (and aggressive) response of some Evangelicals. I think the reason many times Evangelicals can't reasonably discuss issues is because any questioning of Christian theology is in effect a threat to their own ego and identity.

Anyway appreciate your guys' (and gals?) thoughts. I hope you can understand the ideas I am driving toward as I feel I don't fully understand what I am trying to say myself.
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01-07-2015 , 07:53 PM
Kierkegaard said something like, sin is anything which you base your identity on that is not God. I'm having difficulty providing a source for this, but it's a rough paraphrase.

This came up in the "evidence" thread, when I mentioned that sin is anything that you put before God, or where your life is not God-centred. I think it's an interesting perspective, instead of thinking of yourself in terms of things you do or don't do, you think of yourself in terms of who you are in God.

Obviously this won't appeal to everyone, but as a Christian, I think it's interesting.
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01-07-2015 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude
Kierkegaard said something like, sin is anything which you base your identity on that is not God. I'm having difficulty providing a source for this, but it's a rough paraphrase.

This came up in the "evidence" thread, when I mentioned that sin is anything that you put before God, or where your life is not God-centred. I think it's an interesting perspective, instead of thinking of yourself in terms of things you do or don't do, you think of yourself in terms of who you are in God.

Obviously this won't appeal to everyone, but as a Christian, I think it's interesting.
Interesting you brought up K. I've been reading him quite a lot over the last couple of years. Some things LZ said reminded me of him as well.

In "Sickness Unto Death" K. talks a lot about despair, which he uses as a synonym for sin.

Here's a quote from this book

http://www.amazon.com/Kierkegaards-C.../dp/0802868061

which I'm now going through for the 3rd time (K. is really, really hard sometimes)

Quote:
Sin is before God, or with the conception of God, in despair not to will to be oneself, or in despair to will to be oneself. Thus sin is intensified weakness or intensified defiance: sin is the intensification of despair. The emphasis is on before God, or with a conception of God; it is the conception of God that makes sin dialectically, ethically and religiously what lawyers call "aggravated" despair. (SUD,77)
The italics is from SUD, the rest is the author of the book.

K. says a lot about the individual self. He is a truly amazing writer. I keep a file of quotes I like when I read, and I have far more from K. than anyone - I have to rein myself in or I would end up quoting the entire book.
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01-07-2015 , 11:23 PM
I have grown to think of myself as someone who has no buttons to push, and when you have no buttons to push, no one can push them.

One can have an identity and security in that identity without care for how others perceive their abilities.
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01-08-2015 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude
This came up in the "evidence" thread, when I mentioned that sin is anything that you put before God, or where your life is not God-centred. I think it's an interesting perspective, instead of thinking of yourself in terms of things you do or don't do, you think of yourself in terms of who you are in God.

Obviously this won't appeal to everyone, but as a Christian, I think it's interesting.
Eh...sounds a little airy to me, Fwiw. Better to not do anything than to do evil stemming from one's ego; if so then yea, ok sounds good. But ultimately there are some to do's, and perhaps shying away from them is the result of the ego fooling one's self, and rendering one's self ineffective?

Last edited by Herbavorus_Rex; 01-08-2015 at 12:39 AM.
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01-08-2015 , 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST

As we live we build identities. For example, I have grown to think of myself as an intellectual. Now that I have formed this self image I need to protect it. If someone criticizes my intelligence or ability to think critically I will be offended.
I think it would be useful to contemplate how much of this excessive value and deep attachment given to these identities was done automatically or unconsciously. This isn't something to be done nonchalantly but requires deep examination.
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01-08-2015 , 01:01 AM
I kind of think Maslow's hierachy of needs seems relevant to the topic (which I learned of through Aaron linking it...)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%...archy_of_needs

Quote:
Self-actualization

"What a man can be, he must be." This quotation forms the basis of the perceived need for self-actualization. This level of need refers to what a person's full potential is and the realization of that potential. Maslow describes this level as the desire to accomplish everything that one can, to become the most that one can be. Individuals may perceive or focus on this need very specifically. For example, one individual may have the strong desire to become an ideal parent. In another, the desire may be expressed athletically. For others, it may be expressed in paintings, pictures, or inventions. As previously mentioned, Maslow believed that to understand this level of need, the person must not only achieve the previous needs, but master them.


Self-Transcendence

In his later years, Maslow explored a further dimension of needs, while criticizing his own vision on self-actualization. The self only finds its actualization in giving itself to some higher goal outside oneself, in altruism and spirituality.
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01-08-2015 , 01:03 AM
Maslow's hierarchy is a crock of bollocks. His research is not taken seriously beyond the undergrad level.
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01-08-2015 , 05:01 AM
Most people check other people opinions to decide who they are, some don't. Most people behave congruently to their self image, some don't.
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01-08-2015 , 05:22 AM
In before neeeel says there is no "you".
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01-08-2015 , 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
In before neeeel says there is no "you".
haha, wondered who would be the first one to say that.

And while its true( that theres no you) , people believe that there is, and that this you has all sorts of characteristics, an identity. What I think is a more interesting question is WHY its bad to have this identity, WHY its bad to be ego bound or whatever. If there is an actual entity, then it makes sense to defend it. So why do so many religions say its bad?

I would be interested in theists thoughts on that. "because jesus said so" isnt really a reason.
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01-08-2015 , 08:49 AM
Its bad to have an ego because "you" has a person develops, grows, changes behaviour, changes beliefs, ideas, attitudes etc...so there is no fixed point where I can say "that is neeeel, that is the real neeeel" because over time you will have changed again.

But people with egos believe that they are fixed and rooted to the ground like a tree on what they believe "I am right and my belief will never change it will stand the test of time" they believe in other sorts of stuff that over time change like the wind. So the ego mind holds back (tries or denies) the movement of constant change as it clings to whatever idea it has found believing "this is me"
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01-08-2015 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
Its bad to have an ego because "you" has a person develops, grows, changes behaviour, changes beliefs, ideas, attitudes etc...so there is no fixed point where I can say "that is neeeel, that is the real neeeel" because over time you will have changed again.

But people with egos believe that they are fixed and rooted to the ground like a tree on what they believe "I am right and my belief will never change it will stand the test of time" they believe in other sorts of stuff that over time change like the wind. So the ego mind holds back (tries or denies) the movement of constant change as it clings to whatever idea it has found believing "this is me"
Everyone has an ego. And this still doesnt really explain why its bad to have one since the ego is part of what changes over time
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01-08-2015 , 09:53 AM
There is no "you" neeel!
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01-08-2015 , 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotReady
Sin is before God, or with the conception of God, in despair not to will to be oneself, or in despair to will to be oneself.
This really hits home with me. It very much reminds me of forming an identity, and fighting for that identity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbavorus_Rex
Eh...sounds a little airy to me, Fwiw. Better to not do anything than to do evil stemming from one's ego; if so then yea, ok sounds good. But ultimately there are some to do's, and perhaps shying away from them is the result of the ego fooling one's self, and rendering one's self ineffective?
Yeah, I'll agree with you actually, it does sound a bit wishy-washy, but there is something here. I think what this does is explain why someone may do (or not do) what they should, that your sins are actually the symptom of a misplaced identity, or a struggle to accept one's identity. Actually, I think it's not that different from what you said about ego, or what Notready quoted from SK.
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01-08-2015 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
There is no "you" neeel!
I know. Im not sure you get it,though
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01-08-2015 , 11:54 AM
There is no "me" to get it neeeel!
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01-08-2015 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Agrees
There is no "me" to get it neeeel!
Correct, and you still dont get it
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01-08-2015 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
Everyone has an ego. And this still doesnt really explain why its bad to have one since the ego is part of what changes over time
It's a little tricky because how people understand or distinguish between words like "ego", "self", "identity", "soul" and the like is fluid.

Many religions will talk about superfluous attachments to things, habits of behavior and thinking, or illusory self-understandings that have to be undermined in order to understand who and what one really is, and in many traditions to know oneself truly is part of knowing the Whole, or God. Sometimes those attachments, habits, and false identities get lumped together under "ego". Then what is bad is taking those things to be your true self. Beyond that, some such habits or attachments might be considered psychologically unhelpful even outside any religious context.

In some understandings, like various schools of Vedanta or Buddhism, they would also suggest that there is no individual substantial self, it is in some sense illusory, and the realization and experience of that illusory-ness is part of spiritual awakening.
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01-08-2015 , 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
I have grown to think of myself as someone who has no buttons to push, and when you have no buttons to push, no one can push them.

One can have an identity and security in that identity without care for how others perceive their abilities.
Yeah this makes sense. I think another part of the discussion is our insecurities which underpin so much of life.

If we face our insecurities and embrace them or comes to terms with them then those insecurities lose their power so to speak.
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01-08-2015 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1120
I think it would be useful to contemplate how much of this excessive value and deep attachment given to these identities was done automatically or unconsciously. This isn't something to be done nonchalantly but requires deep examination.
I think pretty well all of the identity formation occurs automatically. I never stop and think about what identity I want to form or choose my insecurities.

I think that is part of what prompted me to make this thread. I want to increase in self awareness (not in a hippy sense). I want to stop and think about what expectations I have of myself and why these expectations exist.

Do I have something to prove? If so what is it and does it matter?

EDIT: My hope is that my personal reflection may cause others to reflect as well and I suppose you could say "grow as a person". Oh man I am falling back on all the fluffy language I want to avoid...
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01-09-2015 , 01:08 AM
I also see a lot of fluffy language and non-concepts thrown around in this thread. For example, are we referring to Freud's notion of ego? or what notion of ego are we talking about?

What is 'spiritual awakening'? In particular, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to control my gag reflex when people put these two words together. How do they differ from something like self-help? or self-improvement?
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01-09-2015 , 01:22 AM
It would be hard to give the phrase "spiritual awakening" a very concrete meaning apart from some particular tradition. In certain Vedantic schools it might be the realization in consciousness that Atman is Brahman. The satori or sunyata of Buddhism might be a little different. To some extent most of those traditions say that the ultimate reality of one's being is ineffable, so it's a little difficult to avoid non-conceptual fluffy language

On the other hand, I did try to suggest some fairly concrete ideas also: emotional attachments to possessions or people, or psychological habits and patterns of behavior which are somewhat unconscious but taken as something fundamental to identity. The latter are the "passions" talked about by Christian asceticism, for example.

I do agree though that the words are all polysemic and you have to define them a bit before you can really procede
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01-09-2015 , 01:26 AM
This might be another angle. I just read this the other day:

Quote:
Descartes, to whom one attributes the discovery of the cogito sum as the point of departure for all modern philosophical questioning…investigates the cogitare of the ego—within certain limits. But the sum he leaves completely undiscussed, even though it is just as primordial as the cogito. -- Heidegger, Being and Time
There are both philosophical and religious traditions that describe a kind of spiritual progress understood as the realization that thinking is not prior to or more important than being. The "thinking" is conceptually tied to "ego", and "self" to "being", such that therefore the ego is not the true self. One's thoughts are not one's true being.
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01-09-2015 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I think pretty well all of the identity formation occurs automatically. I never stop and think about what identity I want to form or choose my insecurities.

I think that is part of what prompted me to make this thread. I want to increase in self awareness (not in a hippy sense). I want to stop and think about what expectations I have of myself and why these expectations exist.

Do I have something to prove? If so what is it and does it matter?

EDIT: My hope is that my personal reflection may cause others to reflect as well and I suppose you could say "grow as a person". Oh man I am falling back on all the fluffy language I want to avoid...
I'm with you. I've pushed pretty hard for self-awareness and introspection but people are not easily influenced when it comes to this stuff.

I'll tell you when I think back to when I first started to become aware of the things you mention and began to question if I was in as much control over myself as I thought I was, I remember feeling a strong sense of betrayal that really motivated me to be more conscious.
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