Does anyone "Know" anything with absolute certainty? - Page 7 - Religion, God, and Theology

Basically a thought by any other name would smell as sweet

Thoughts or ideas are manifested regardless what term you want to use for thoughts or ideas

What you're really saying is that 'something is manifested'.

But even this begs the question. What does it mean 'to manifest'? Does that mean - to be caused, or just - to be?

At best, you might be able to claim that: something exists. However, even this conclusion relies on the principle of non-contradiction and the principle of identity: meaning that it assumes that existing and not-existing are not the same thing and it assumes that something and nothing are not the same thing.

As such, although the principles of reason are held to be self-evident, much like 'thoughts', they are in themselves, not provable.

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07-14-2015 , 08:39 PM

#152

DodgerIrish

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But if you want to get into that degree of semantics can you not say that we can know nothing with absolute certainty which then means we can be absolutely certain that we know nothing with absolutely certainty?

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07-14-2015 , 08:48 PM

#153

VeeDDzz`

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

Assumptions involved any which way you go, so no you can't claim to know with absolute certainty that you know nothing.

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07-15-2015 , 03:04 PM

#154

dereds

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Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

This is a pretty common accusation against the sceptic but it's one that's easily enough refuted. The sceptic merely says no we can not know with certainty that we know nothing. Certainty is a success term that never obtains hence knowledge never obtains.

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07-15-2015 , 03:14 PM

#155

fraleyight

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I am not absolutely certain that we know nothing for absolute certainty.. Is that the question?

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07-15-2015 , 04:07 PM

#156

DodgerIrish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dereds

So in a binary A or B question 'Can we know anything with absolute certainty?' the skeptic will reply with C?

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07-15-2015 , 04:10 PM

#157

dereds

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Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

So in a binary A or B question 'Can we know anything with absolute certainty?' the skeptic will reply with C?

The sceptic merely replies no.

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07-15-2015 , 04:28 PM

#158

fraleyight

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When asked, can I be "absolutely certain" that I can know anything with "absolute certainty" I will reply with " I don't know"..

In general though, I don't say " I know" and mean " I know with absolute certainty" I just mean that it is demonstrable with any reasonable measure to be true.

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07-15-2015 , 06:03 PM

#159

DodgerIrish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dereds

The sceptic merely replies no.

But they're not absolutely certain it's no?

If not then they can't answer the question, if so then my post before stands

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07-15-2015 , 06:14 PM

#160

fraleyight

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

But they're not absolutely certain it's no?

If not then they can't answer the question, if so then my post before stands

The answer would be "I don't know" any other answer would be a logical absurdity to the position taken in OP.

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07-15-2015 , 07:08 PM

#161

DodgerIrish

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That's what I meant by C

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07-15-2015 , 07:13 PM

#162

fraleyight

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I figured as much : ) lol

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07-16-2015 , 12:28 AM

#163

VeeDDzz`

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dereds

In science, if some term like 'absolute certainty' "can never obtain" we get rid of it from our vocabulary, or we redefine it as something that can be obtained.

In other words, 'absolute certainty' is meaningless, unless redefined.

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07-16-2015 , 01:03 AM

#164

dereds

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Originally Posted by DodgerIrish

But they're not absolutely certain it's no?

If not then they can't answer the question, if so then my post before stands

It doesn't. Consider the following propositions and sceptic answers.

P1 Can anything be known with absolute certainty.
S1 No

P2 Can you know this with absolute certainty
S2 No

Them answering No to P1 does not mean they must answer differently to P2.

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07-16-2015 , 01:08 AM

#165

dereds

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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`

Absolute certainty is unnecessary, we can drop the absolute.

The sceptics target is a claim to knowledge whether local or global, their point is that we can't know some class of propositions. Philosophy isn't bound to accept their definition though, there is no need for knowledge to entail certainty or for this claim to certainty to rule out these propositions. Hence Moore ovwe 100 years ago claiming, justifiably imo, to have hands.

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07-16-2015 , 11:47 AM

#166

fraleyight

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Originally Posted by dereds

I agree with this. The only problem is the OP is about people who bring this up. Such as creationists.

creationist: "Do you know you exist with absolute certainty?"
Skeptic: "NO, I can't know that?"

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07-17-2015 , 02:22 AM

#167

VeeDDzz`

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I'm not convinced that even creationists believe in absolute certainty, failing to provide sufficient answers to the question of:

Do you know with absolute certainty that your God was not created by a higher-God? that gave him all the powers of a God, except for the power to find out that he was created by a higher-God.

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07-17-2015 , 10:22 AM

#168

fraleyight

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Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`

O some of them definitely believe in absolute certainty. Not for any good reasons, but they do. Everyone doesn't reach convictions the same way.

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07-18-2015 , 03:06 AM

#169

BeaucoupFish

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`

Their God, by definition, is uncreated. So you would not be describing their God.

'Absolute' is a commonly used word by fundamentalists (though often it is used interchangeably with 'objective' in their peculiar lexicon).

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07-19-2015 , 07:17 PM

#170

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Some people (like AaronW) desperately want lack of absolute knowledge to imply that all knowledge is equal.

I do?

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Not stated that outright of course, as paradoxical statements of that nature are best avoided - but rather hidden in long meaningless quarrelsome obscurity. When this "principle" is applied, anything is justified and any counter-argument automatically fails. I have never understand the allure of such perfect "intellectual fortresses", but I guess it feels better than "I just know it in my heart".

I would be interested in an actual analysis of something that shows that this is something more than empty speculation and a projection of your own imagination than a reality.

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07-20-2015 , 02:22 AM

#171

fraleyight

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Welcome back Aaron!

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07-20-2015 , 09:49 AM

#172

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by fraleyight

Welcome back Aaron!

Thanks!

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07-26-2015 , 01:30 PM

#173

SuperMario7

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fraleyight

"In reality, there is no such thing as “absolute truth”. Everything within the capacity of human understanding contains a degree of error, and everything men know to be true is only true to a degree. Everyone is inevitably wrong about something somewhere. We don’t know everything about everything. We don’t know everything about anything! And what we do know, we don’t know accurately on all points nor completely in every detail. Honest men admit this. Anyone claiming to know the absolute truth is not being honest, especially not when they claim to know anything about things which can only be believed on faith. Even if men were given genuine revelations by truly omniscient beings, they must still be filtered and interpreted by weaker minds influenced by our limitations, biases, and misimpressions, as well as linguistic and cultural barriers."

-Aron Ra

We know for absolute certainty that if God exists, then he is a very ****yy God.