One of my roommates just finished a class that looked at evidence on whether or not Jesus actually died and resurrected from the dead the way it's described in the Bible. From what he says the class was mostly a joke, with most of the readings ridiculously one sided in favor of the resurrection, and most of the students either apathetic or illogical in their arguments. Setting aside poor course design, the subject matter caught my interest. Why would someone want historical evidence that the resurrection happened, isn't faith supposed to be enough, etc, were a few of the thoughts that went through my head.

Now obviously people are interested in this, or there wouldn't be multiple books (and at least one bad college course) dedicated to the subject, so my simple question, for those of you that it applies to, is why? Do you actively want to find evidence that Jesus resurrected from the dead (or a similar Biblical event), or is it more of a casual interest?

Yes. Unless you're an Apologist, then I guess some evidence wouldn't hurt.

How likely do you think it is that the resurrection is simply the earliest Christians 'borrowing' from earlier religions? There are many examples that predate Christianity, the most commonly mentioned I think is the Osiris resurrection story in which Osiris dies and comes back to life on the third day. Co-incidence?

Personally, I think borrowing the resurrection story does seem plausible, especially considering the subsequent history of borrowing and co-opting things like Christmas/Saturnalia, spring equinox fertility festivals (why does an easter rabbit bring eggs was always a mystery to me growing up), Halloween, etc. Do you think some people look for evidence of Jesus's resurrection as a reaction to critics claiming the whole story was just borrowed? I still don't get it. Like, you're ok with believing in the existence of an omniscient, supreme being and accepting that there's no scientific evidence of his existence, but you want proof that a guy died and rose from the dead? I understand that the resurrection is a huge part of christian faith, but surely there are more important things. Like, I dunno, God creating life to begin with?

Perhaps it's as simple as that the resurrection might be provable where proving God's existence is somewhat problematic.

Also, you have the Shroud of Turin, that may or may not be the cloth that covered Jesus in the tomb but has been long held as an important religious trophy by a church that has a long history of venerating grisly religious relics for the purposes of religiosity. Perhaps that's an encouragement to believers (since it suggests that the tomb part of the story might have actually happened) that the resurrection might actually be provable, and wouldn't they dearly love to prove something like that in the current atmosphere of scientific skepticism.

I don't know that it is always like that. Whenever I find myself doubting God or God's plans I usually reflect on the miracles that God performed in my life. Those miracles only happened because I had faith to follow through, and allow them to happen. I really don't think that evidence for or against the resurrection or whatever, plays much, if any role, in a believer's faith walk.

For example, someone close to me told me that he was depressed, down-and-out and on the beach late one night, and challenged God to reveal himself. He cried to the waves and said: "If you exist, show me a sign right now, and I will be a better person!"

And at that moment a huge fish of some kind jumped onto the beach, like 3 feet long, and flopped around, and then the waves came up and took the fish in.

Now, I am not stating that this is a bona-fide miracle. But the effect of the event is everpresent in this person's life now. Perhaps he is about to cheat on his taxes or whatever, and the fish jumps at him, and he thinks of his promise, and his challenge.

The point is that-- whatever it is that gets the ball of belief rolling-- usually recedes in importance as time goes on, and personal experiences grow more important.

Yawn.

Claim: Osiris was killed and later resurrected, providing hope to all that they may do likewise and become eternal
Truth: Osiris was murdered and his body was then dismembered and scattered. Later, his body pieces were recovered and rejoined, and he was rejuvenated. Osiris then journeyed to the underworld, where he became the lord of the dead. He did NOT resurrect with a glorified body and walk with men on earth, as did Jesus. He was not alive again, as was Jesus, but was instead a “dead” god who never returned among the living

[ People need to stop getting their history from donkumentaries like Zeitgeist. ]


"Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have 'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as an annual event."

"In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by Frazer et.al.)."

"The repeated formula 'Rise up, you have not died,' whether applied to Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the realm of the dead."

Frankfort concurs:

"Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead king." [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978 edition, p.289]

Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in the abode of the dead. As biblical scholar, Roland de Vaux, wrote, "What is meant of Osiris being 'raised to life?' Simply that, thanks to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he will never again come among the living and will reign only over the dead.... This revived god is in reality a 'mummy' god."... No, the mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him. His body did not rise from the dead; rather elements of his personality-his Ba and Ka-continued to hover over his body. ["The Resurrection of Jesus Christ: Myth, Hoax, or History?" David J. MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169

Frazer [Fraz.AAO, viii] wrote that every dead man was given Osiris' name on top of his own in order to identify with the god.

So O's "resurrection" is no resurrection at all -- and in fact was actually a sort of function of the way the Egyptian gods were, shall we say, being half Frankenstein, half Lego set. There are in fact many stories of the Egyptian gods flinging various body parts around, and to no overall harm, because "divine bodies were thought to be impervious to change" [Meek.DL, 57] and so O's dead body neither rotted nor decomposed as it waited to be put back together. This is how it was with all these Egyptian gods: Seth and Horus have a fight in which they throw dung at each other then steal each others' genitals [Bud.ERR, 64]. Horus' eye is stolen by Set, but Horus gets it back and gives it to Osiris, who eats it [ibid., 88]. Horus had a headache, and another deity offers to loan him his head until the headache went away [Meek.DL, 57]. Osiris did pay a price for his dismembering death, in that he was limited to the world of the dead [and manifestly ignorant as a result of what went on "above ground" -- Meek.DL, 88-9], but that is only because he had actually died once before when his father accidentally killed him [ibid., 80].

http://operation513.blogspot.com/200...and-jesus.html

I once asked the sky to rain and 5 seconds later it started raining. But what you're telling me is that if I just replaced a few words in my question and instead asked God (e.g., can you show me a sign God and give me rain?)......I'd be stuck with a belief in God for the rest of my life?

I don't need to try to refute your posts FZ, it's not the only resurrection myth that predates Christianity, nor is it the only Christian myth that is suspiciously similar (or even identical) to myths from earlier religions.

I don't actually know why you'd have a problem with this anyway, surely Christians who take the bible literally are in a minority these days? Only the fundamentalists still believe that it is the literal word of god and everything in it happened exactly as described.

Could have been a false positive, it deserves to be tested again

Pfft...I think I'll skip the testing and just insist on generalizing based on individual case studies - as the religious love to do.

You need to do some actual research apart from watching your donkumentaries.

Completely grunching cos I can't abide having unread threads.

A+ will be nicking that.

Let's talk about the lies perpetrated about Horus on Zeitgeist and many atheist sites pick it up and lap it up like it was truth. Talk about non-critical thinking...

Horus

Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
He was of royal descent.
At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.
He ad 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").
He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead.
Horus walked on water.
His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child."
He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.
Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth.
Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
He came to fulfill the Law.
Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."
Was supposed to reign one thousand years.

That's quite a list, but let's make it simple to start: A good number -- at least half -- are so far as I have seen bogus. There has not been a shred of evidence for many of these in any book of Egyptian religion I have thus far consulted. So as Clara Peller used to say, Where's the beef? Where's the original Egyptian lit that backs this up? Christ-Mythers: we do not want to hear from Gerald Massey or Godfrey Higgins; we want the original citation from Egyptian records. If I don't hear from any of you within a year (and I know that they check in on this site, because I hear from them), I'll assume no response is possible and go back to more copycat projects. In some cases below we will draw upon Glenn Miller's copycat article where he has done some previous work.

For convenience I begin by reproducing the "thumbnail sketch of Horus' life" given in Encyclopedia of Religions as offered by Miller, which also lays the groundwork for Osiris:

"In ancient Egypt there were originally several gods known by the name Horus, but the best known and most important from the beginning of the historic period was the son of Osiris and Isis who was identified with the king of Egypt. According to myth, Osiris, who assumed the rulership of the earth shortly after its creation, was slain by his jealous brother, Seth. The sister- wife of Osiris, Isis, who collected the pieces of her dismembered husband and revived him, also conceived his son and avenger, Horus. Horus fought with Seth, and, despite the loss of one eye in the contest, was successful in avenging the death of his father and in becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris then became king of the dead and Horus king of the living, this transfer being renewed at every change of earthly rule. The myth of divine kingship probably elevated the position of the god as much as it did that of the king. In the fourth dynasty, the king, the living god, may have been one of the greatest gods as well, but by the fifth dynasty the supremacy of the cult of Re, the sun god, was accepted even by the kings. The Horus-king was now also "son of Re." This was made possible mythologically by personifying the entire older genealogy of Horus (the Heliopolitan ennead) as the goddess Hathor, "house of Horus," who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.

"Horus was usually represented as a falcon, and one view of him was as a great sky god whose outstretched wings filled the heavens; his sound eye was the sun and his injured eye the moon. Another portrayal of him particularly popular in the Late Period, was as a human child suckling at the breast of his mother, Isis. The two principal cult centers for the worship of Horus were at Bekhdet in the north, where very little survives, and at Idfu in the south, which has a very large and well- preserved temple dating from the Ptolemaic period. The earlier myths involving Horus, as well as the ritual per- formed there, are recorded at Idfu."

Horus

Now we get to the matters of Horus. Many of these have had some input from Miller, so we'll report those and add as needed.

Was born of the virgin Isis-Meri in December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men. The lit has confirmed what Miller offers, and I have also seen the depiction he refers to below. I have found no reference to a cave/manger -- Frazer [Fraz.AAO, 8] has Horus born in the swamps, and knows nothing about a star or Wise Men, of any number.

...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.

Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted by the scholars earlier:

"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine] [BTW, the Hebrew word 'satan' is not a 'cognate' of the name 'seth' by any means: "The root *STN is not evidenced in any of the cognate languages in texts that are prior to or contemporary with its occurrences in the Hebrew Bible" DDD, s.v. 1369f]

The one reference I have found to a birth of Horus has him born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak -- the mythers have a one in 365 chance that this matches Dec. 25th! Achy adds, with Massey as a likely source, the claim that on the walls of the Luxor Temple is a scene showing the "Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kenph, the 'Holy Ghost,' impregnating the virgin," complete with three wise men. For some reason neither Achy nor Massey provide a name or number for this carving, or a location any more specific than the Luxor Temple, which is a rather huge place that is inaccessible to most of Achy's readers. When pressed by an inquirer at her site, Achy plays word games -- "Isis is the constellation of Virgo the Virgin, as well as the Moon, which becomes a 'virgin' during when it is new. The sun god - in this case, Horus - is born of this Virgin goddess." -- and alludes to a document from the 6th century AD! No substantiation is offered for the Isis-Virgo connection at all; it has no more authority than saying "Isis is Gomer the prostitute." If such a carving exists it is only what Achy thinks it is via the interpretation of Massey. (A writer recently sent this description from an Egyptian tour site: "Kingship was believed to be ordained by the gods at the beginning of time in accordance with ma'at., the well-ordered state, truth, justice, cosmic order. The reigning king was also the physical son of the Creator sun-god. This divine conception and birth was recorded on the walls of Luxor Temple, at Deir el-Bahri, and other royal cult temples throughout Egypt. The king was also an incarnation of the dynastic god Horus, and when deceased, the king was identified with the father of Horus, Osiris. This living king was thus a unique entity, the living incarnation of deity, divinely chosen intermediary, who could act as priest for the entire nation, reciting the prayers, dedicating the sacrifices...A peristyle forecourt of Amenhotep III is fused with the hypostyle hall, which is the first room in the inner, originally roofed, part of the temple. This leads to a series of for antechambers with subsidiary rooms. The Birth Room east of the second antechamber is decorated with reliefs showing the symbolic divine birth of Amenhotep III resulting from the union of his mother Mutemwiya and the god Amun. The bark sanctuary includes a free-standing building added by Alexander the Great within the larger chamber created by Amenhotep III. Well-preserved reliefs show Amun's portable bark shrine and other scenes of the king in the presence of the gods. The sanctuary of Amenhotep III is the last room on the central axis of the temple." This is significantly devoid of a virgin conception or birth, wise men, or a Holy Ghost. You might squeeze an adoration out of it, but who does not adore newborns anyway? But now see the trump card, provided by a Skeptic ashamed of Achy's thesis; see here.)

His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Actually Seb was the earth-god, not "earthly," but rather the earth itself (as Nut was the sky), and he was O's dad, not Horus', though one of my helpful researchers tells me there is one version in which Horus was the son of Seb. And don't fall for the etymological trick or treat: You can't get from "Seb" to "Joseph" just by putting the names next to each other.

He was of royal descent. Obviously true, and Horus was often identified with the living Pharaoh, but so commonplace as to be meaningless.

At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this. On this last Miller notes:

...my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [GOE:1.475f; although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere... Horus is NOT the sun-god (that's Re), so we cannot use the 'all solar gods have twelve disciples--in the Zodiac' routine here.]

Was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iaurutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" (John the Baptist) who was decapitated.

He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "AAn" (the two "Johns").

He performed miracles, exorcized demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris") from the dead. Miller notes:

Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature. I have looked under all forms of the name to no avail. The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation. The closest thing to it I can find is in Horus' official funerary role, in which he "introduces" the newly dead to Osirus and his underworld kingdom. In the Book of the Dead, for example, Horus introduces the newly departed Ani to Osirus, and asks Osirus to accept and care for Ani (GOE:1.490).

Horus walked on water. Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water (see below).

His personal epithet was "Iusa" the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was called the "Holy Child." Miller says:

This fact has likewise escaped me and my research. I have looked at probably 50 epithets of the various Horus deities, and most major indices of the standard Egyptology reference works and come up virtually empty-handed. I can find a city named "Iusaas" [GOE:1.85], a pre-Islamic Arab deity by the name of "Iusaas", thought by some to be the same as the Egyptian god Tehuti/Thoth [GOE:2.289], and a female counterpart to Tem, named "Iusaaset" [GOE:1.354]. But no reference to Horus as being "Iusa"... ]

He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa." None of these three can be found, either. On the last Miller writes:

I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...

I found in Budge one idea that Horus had died and been cast in pieces in the water, and his parts were fished out by Sebek the crocodile god at Isis' request. But that's a funny sort of baptism at best (see above). Another source notes a story where Horus is bitten by a snake and revived, which is still not much of a parallel.

Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, was resurrected.

Titles: Way, the Truth the Light; Messiah; God's Anointed Son; Son of Man; Good Shepherd; Lamb of God; Word made flesh; Word of Truth. I found thesed titles: [Bud.ERR, 78] Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father (since he beat up Set, who "killed" Osiris). He may have been called rightly "Son of Man" as the son of royalty (see here) but I have found no evidence for this.

Was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion. I have found no evidence for any of these last four.

He came to fulfill the Law.

Was called "the KRST" or "Anointed One."

Was supposed to reign one thousand years.

Conclusion: This one seems to be full of ringers so far, and it's high time the mythicists backed these up with more than third-hand sabre-rattling from the Barbara Walkers and the Gerald Masseys. So I challenge them now to come up with the gods -- er, goods. Any takers? (Some of these also appear from Tom Harpur -- see more on that here.)

For more: See Mark McFall take on "Skeptic X" (skepticism's own Acharya S) on the subject of O's "resurrection" here and here and here.

Sources:
Bud.ERR -- Budge, E. Wallis. . 1961.
Fraz.AAO -- Frazer, J. G. Adonis, Attis, Osiris. 1961.
Griff.OO -- Griffith, J. Gwyn. The Origins of Osiris and His Cult. Brill: 1996.
Meek.DL -- Meeks, Dimitri. Daily Life of the Egyptian Gods. 1996.
Short.EG -- Shorter, Alan. Egyptian Gods: A Handbook. 1937.

http://operation513.blogspot.com/200...and-jesus.html

... I need to just start clicking the "mark this forum as read" button

I somehow managed to do the whole of 2p2 which made keeping up with other stuff a bit of a nuisance

I haven't seen Zeitgeist, are there any more assumptions that you're making? I guess you wouldn't know, you could ask though?

I have so many myths that predate Christianity, that are suspiciously similar or identical to Christian myths to choose from that I'll give you the Horus myth for free.

Here's some more Gods from earlier religions with personal stories/myths that are identical in parts to Christian mythology (specifically the story of Jesus in these examples), for you to debunk:

Mithra- Persia 600 BC
Krishna- India 1000 BC
Dyonisis - Greece 1500—1100 BC

More focused research (as opposed to simply regurgitating what I've gleaned over the years) throws up numerous stories with astonishing 'parallels', do you want to do them one at a time? I'm game, it'll be an interesting learning experience.

Is that what I am telling you?

Please show me where.

I already stated that the case-in-point is not to be taken as a bona-fide miracle, because that is not the point of the post.

However, I'll bite...your example is ridiculous-- compared to my example. I bet there are people who can predict rain within minutes or seconds if they cared enough to. We have these people called weathermen, too.

Take it from someone who lived on the very beach the person spoke of, that a giant fish jumping onto that beach and flopping around on the sand is pretty damn rare. I've never seen it, and I walked and prayed there every night for a year.

The point, once again, for those who care to actually read carefully, is that the resurrection evidence or fulfilled prophecies of the Bible may be a starting point, or jumping point for faith-- but at some point personal experiences take over and become critical in sustaining belief.

Now, if it was a nice clear day out, without a cloud in the sky, and you asked God for rain, and rain suddenly came, you might be onto something. If-- ten minutes later, you demanded a tree in front of you be scorched by a direct lightning strike, and it happened, you might begin to wonder. But, if 5 minutes later you asked God to send down a space rock down to destroy a house you didn't like the look of, and that too happened, you'd have to be just plain stupid not to see a correlation between your petitions and ensuing events.

I have news for you guys: Christians who have great faith walk among little miracles daily.

I could go on all day about personal anecdotes, but what would be the point? The initial transformation takes place in the heart, and repentance must be heartfelt. I don't believe you will ever "see God" until you have your heart straight. That's the way it works. The program rewards faith and repentance, not critical examination.

That is exactly the way I would do it too, if I were a God offering a program of salvation, transformation and personal change. These things would be hidden from the haughty, the "wise," and all of those who have their heart wrong in relation to their fellow man.

Reward the meek, the faithful, the believing heart, the earnest and repentant heart. And why?

Because it is a personal choice.

If God would appear to all of us tonight on a major network with a major announcement, then perhaps belief would be no issue, but with respect to our human-ness and our free will and our ability to freely choose our path-- THIS might be compromised.

Thought I was the only one. That infernal Buddhism thread is annoying if only for this reason.

I have watched Zeitgiest, I don't think they particularly argue for a direct 1:1 relationship between Christianity and other similar myths - rather it is saying its remarkably similar. Which I think there is something in common. That's me though, YMMV.

Anyhow, the whole 9/11 conspiracy stuff turns me off a bit - I have good friend who is in really into that so I have gotten the whole spiel but I still say its looking for zebras instead of horses (sidenote, 9/11 highjackers apparently stayed at a motel less mile from my house - said hotel is nasty, I have to wonder why not the quality inn, looks much cleaner and basically across the street, I don't think the no-tell policy really applies in this instance).

Anyhow, unless you have some strong yearning to watch it, I don't think you are.missing much.

Kumare is a documentary much more worth your time.

Is it just me, or does "little miracles" seem like a contradiction in terms?

Yes, I realize how you're using the term. Still.

Hahaha, so true (sorry whoever is posting there)

I guess an example would be: I ran out of money. I don't get paid till tomorrow. I can't eat till tomorrow. I pray before I walk into work for God to provide something somehow. I don't worry about it. It will come.

I walk in and in the cafeteria near the salad bar, crumpled up on the floor is a five-dollar bill. Nobody around.

Bingo.

In this scenario, did God influence someone to lose a five-dollar bill, or did He lead you to an already lost five-dollar bill? Or did He create a five-dollar bill out of nothing? Would the latter be an example of a "big miracle"?