If your concept of Christianity is that it's some form of fire insurance, then I'm not at all sure that it's going to do you any good (either practically or theologically).

There is really no evidence that makes one scenario more likely than the other.

Yah probably because your religion never gave you much options on having your own thoughts. Now it feels like a weight has been lifted off you because you now have come to realize you're allowed to think whatever you want.

You could have been going to hell anyway. You've seen this right?....

I'm not sure that's how I would have conceptualized it.

In any event, I think the vast majority of what I was taught as a child was utter bull**** regardless, at least in regards to any deity.

I'm not particularly worried about it at this point.

Obviously not in those terms, but if the primary function of whatever it was that you believed was hell-avoidance, then I think my point still stands. Many fundamentalist perspectives weave those thoughts fairly deeply into everything, and your description matches those elements very well.

For example, conservative/fundamentalist Church of Christ as a theology about baptism where if you die on the way to get baptized, then you go to hell. They have similar thoughts about things like communion.

I know you're done with this line of thought for now, but I hope it's something you come back to at some point. I don't doubt that the quality of what you were taught as a child matches your description. But there's a very real sense in which your conclusion is probably too strong -- while rejecting what you were taught, you should remain fair-handed with information that's presented to you that's different from what you were taught, even if they invoke some form of a deity.

You assume I haven't done that.

I see no evidence for a deity and nothing I've read in the intervening years has provided me with a convincing argument a) that there is one, or b) absent proof of one, why someone should believe without proof.

Can you characterize what you've done in search of this evidence and how you conceptualize the search for evidence? Do you believe that "finding God" is the same type of search as "finding gravity" or something similar?

This is always an interesting standard. What would you consider to be "convincing"? What sort of event or observation would it take for you to become "convinced"? (This is tied to the first set of questions.)

With regards to b), do you require "proof" of everything you believe?

Congrats SGT, and I am glad to see you have found this acceptance comforting and restful. someone quoted matt dilahunty from the atheist experience above, and one of the best aspects of that show is to demonstrate the range of emotional experience that accompany people who make this conversion. Sometimes people think that not believing in God would be a very unsettling experience, and indeed it seems many people have experienced this. Myself, I have always found atheism to be a very peaceful and contented view, and it seems you have found yourself somehwere near here too.

Convincing means I'm convinced.

I like to think that I try to apply some sort of standard of proof to most things, but like all humans I have unconscious biases. For scientific things I look to the standards of that discipline, for example. I don't think double blind clinical trials really apply here, however.

I've done a lot of reading on the "case" for a deity (or against it) and was not convinced that there is any evidence to support the existance of one. I don't remember all of it - frankly I updated this thread as an afterthought, I reached my current place some time ago. Given my background, I should probably have been easier to sway towards a theist position than vice versa. I am not "angry" with god or anything like that. I have a problem with organized religion as much of it is practiced in the US today but have no problem with specific people who are either religious or theists. If they are respectful of my views and the views of others, I certainly respect their right to believe whatever they choose.

What sort of proof would I require. I don't know. The easy answer would be "a miracle," but even most of what are typically described as miracles, I believe, are simply natural phenomenon we do not yet understand. Droughts and massive storms were miracles (or punishments from wrathful deities) long ago. To actually see god. Something tangible. Something that can be observed and verified.

At any rate I'm not really particularly interested into discussing (or debating) this online. I remain always open to new views or to changing my opinion as I learn or experience more in life. I simply remembered this thread and thought I'd update it on the off chance anyone cared.

Actually, people coming from a more fundamentalist background have a much easier time swinging away from theism, mostly because their "theological training" tends to be quite rigid. It's kind of a pendulum effect. The ball has been brought up very far in one direction, and it swings very hard in the other direction.

I hope I did not imply that in any way.

I appreciate the honest reaction.

If you accept that immaterial nature of God, then you would understand why waiting around to see God is extremely unlikely to result in seeing God. And it will always be true that any event that invokes God will always be explainable in a manner that doesn't invoke God, or can be proposed to be the result of some yet-unknown feature of the universe.

Therefore, the nature of being "convinced" will likely have to come at you from a different direction if it is going to happen at all.

Best of luck.

As for what happens after death, I've always liked this quote by Mark Twain:

'I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience...'

For it isn't about death but the fact that life is over or in the words of Christopher Hitchens:

Epic bump, RJ. I'm glad to read that you've resolved this crisis...I know from personal experience that it's an extremely difficult road to walk down. This got me looking back to 2011, when I was in the end stages of belief in any possible deity. Due to my conservative Christian upbringing, I was still wrestling with the fear of hell. I'm now a content Atheist, and life is good.

Do you have a source for this? I'm not challenging the statement; I just wonder if anyone has done a study or if the conclusion is anecdotal. (Though I must say the explanation is really convenient to the believer's position.)

It's anecdotal. I've not seen or done a formal study of it.

There are some similarities to be found elsewhere. In my industry, tech, it is known that a detractor is more likely to be turned to a promoter than someone who is neutral. There does seem to be some link between the strength and extremity of the position held and the strength of the opposing positions held if the original is given up.

Also anecdotally, but I've been involved to a small and diminishing degree around politics for over 30 years, many of those that switch political allegiance tend to end up moving much further than is required by the switch.

Isn't it relatively self-evident bc the whole ethos of fundamentalism is all or nothing?

Funny when I saw this thread I thought someone had bumped an old one I had started... had the same exact title! And I went through the same exact crisis as you did.

Glad to see you have worked through it, as I have. It's tough to go through but the doubts were your rational mind begging for your attention. It can only be ignored for so long.

Calling it "self-evident" is too strong. Many people do shift from more fundamentalist perspectives to less fundamentalist perspectives without abandoning their faith.

The visible church is not REAL.

Think on this. The bible says that Satan rules this world. He is the God of this world.

Why would Satan allow a "true church" that is his enemy to not only exist but FLOURISH in "HIS" world.

If you were the CEO of a huge company, would you not only hire and promote your most HATED ENEMY?

Take the red pill and see how far the rabbit hole goes.... But remember I only promise you the truth and nothing more...

Some words about death:
Nearly all of us do plan this and that and care for this and that. The more we are successful in our plans the more we think, we are someone. For example some times ago, in Iranian TV an ex wrestling world champion did talk about loyalty. And he tried to do this like a philosopher. I mean, I would told him, hey man, you are wrestler, when you are a good wrestler, this doesn't make you a good philosopher. Or let us think about Lionel Messi or Christian Ronaldo. They think they are great persons but being a very successful soccer player, this doesn't make one great in everything. And the credit of being a great soccer player belongs probably to 99.9999999999999999999999% not to them. The talent they didn't give themselves. They were born with it. The circumstances in which they did grew up, they didn't chose it, who have been their parents, where they were raised, all what happened outside their influence through their live was beyond their control. For that someone becomes successful he needs unimaginable lots of luck in every direction.

Now Hitchens might be right criticizing some religious people for what they say to someone who is going to die but in a discussion about religion and atheism this is at best secondary. Primarily important is: what does death teach us?
- We are nothing!
- Everything what we did plan and did care for was for nothing!

This is the meaning of having faith: Accept you are nothing and everything that you care for is air. Accept you are weak and have no power. If you had power you wouldn't become ill, you wouldn't become unhappy, everything would go the way you wish it and you wouldn't die. Now ofc we have to examine if having faith is good or bad for us.
When we stop to plan, as plans go almost always astray (by no later than when the death comes), there will be instantly a release because now nothing can go wrong.
When we stop to care for anything but our self than it will leave us by no later than when the death comes. To care for our self means doing things which make us happy. The only thing what makes us happy without disappointment is: Planting kindness in our soul, or in atheistic terms, planting kindness in our brain. This is not possible without giving up on our ego. As we cannot decide our destiny and as we cannot control what happens beyond our will, we should accept we are nothing and let the ego go then ego leads sooner or later to disappointments, fears and anger. Planting disappointments, fears and anger in our brain, religions call it hell. Atheists (and lots of them walk around as theists) call it sooner or later: others are idiots, others are whores, life is awful etc. etc. etc.

It's the attitudes of people like Doggg that drive people away from the church in droves.

Christianity is complex. It does not seem to fit in our present world.

And from where I am, people look down on you if you say you believe in God lol.

I think the utter lunacy of religion when viewed with any type of objectivity has more to do with it.

That's a lot of words to say you have to just close your eyes and believe.

I'm actually comfortable identifying as atheist now.