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Old 08-23-2011, 09:29 AM   #76
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by stueycal View Post
Once again you are leaving the task of interpreting god's word up to humans.
Interpretation by humans is the only way a text is ever understood. God knew this when choosing the written word for his purpose.

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You are also saying "the authors" like there isn't supposed to be just one.
That's correct. There were many inspired authors, using a range of styles.

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The bible mentions many animals, none of which appear on the earth prior to 6000 - 10,000 BCE. You know, like dinosaurs?

A great hypothesis for why not would be because the authors had no idea that dinosaurs even walked the earth, or anything about science and technology for that matter.
Quite plausible. Since that culture knew nothing of dinosaurs, we should not be surprised to find no references to them.

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Or had any knowledge of anything outside of Palestine. The bible might not say the "earth was created in xx/xx/xxxx", but judging by what the bible does not say about most living organisms that are now fossilized, we can safely assume these primitive semi literate sheep headers and fisherman thought the world popped into existence ex nihilo sometime around the bronze age.
Not all the Biblical authors were semi-literate. Paul, for one, was a Pharisee. He was also raised in Jerusalem (very cosmopolitan for its time) and a student of a prestigious member of the Sanhedrin.

You're free to assume anything, of course. In terms of what anyone actually set down in the Bible, I don't see even a rough estimate of the earth's age given.

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I often think that if the bible was indeed the direct works of a divine being, there would be no need to defend the book. I realize we are not reading the book in its original language, but I also realize the bible makes a little to few correct predictions about the earth and our universe. If anyone is going to nitpick around at Genesis, and try to say that it is somehow metaphorical and that the global flood never happened, adam and eve is a figure of speech and the garden of eden is gods allegorical way of keeping us in check, then you are now opening up the entire bible to be taken as nothing more then wish wash and fairy tales.
Even if the entire Bible was intended as metaphor, which it is not, your dichotomy would still not follow. The metaphoric language used by that culture was perfectly capable of distinguishing claims of truth versus mere storytelling.
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Old 08-23-2011, 09:42 AM   #77
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by RLK View Post
I did. I started a thread with the title Logical Theism. It is covered in detail there.
Ah yes, the "logical" theism thread in which you refused to clarify basic details of your OP, then claimed to know my beliefs better than I do, and stopped responding to me.

A real tour de force!
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:22 AM   #78
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Interpretation by humans is the only way a text is ever understood. God knew this when choosing the written word for his purpose.
And did he also choose to have his words edited, re-edited and changed throughout the first two centuries, were the editorial staff of the canonical gospels also divinely inspired?

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That's correct. There were many inspired authors, using a range of styles.
Who can't seem to get there story straight. Maybe god was a little groggy when he recanted the resurrection to Matthew, mark, Luke, and john. Who all tell different stories. The synoptic problem is just that, a serious problem. It is quite obvious the authors of the gospels (who were most likely not john, mark, luke and matthew) all stole from one another, quite blatantly.

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Quite plausible. Since that culture knew nothing of dinosaurs, we should not be surprised to find no references to them.
No need for god to mention or tell stories of animals past? No need to mention that humans all share a common ancestry with every living thing? That heavy metals are forged in the crucibles of stars? That there is 300 sextillion other solar systems besides ours? Hundreds of billions of galaxy's? The actual number of pi? Just because the human beings did not have scientific literacy, does not mean that god, who created everything, should not be describing his creation in a little more scientific detail then...."in the beginning...."

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Even if the entire Bible was intended as metaphor, which it is not, your dichotomy would still not follow. The metaphoric language used by that culture was perfectly capable of distinguishing claims of truth versus mere storytelling.
Is Genesis meant to be taken literally?
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:25 AM   #79
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by stueycal View Post
And did he also choose to have his words edited, re-edited and changed throughout the first two centuries, were the editorial staff of the canonical gospels also divinely inspired?



Who can't seem to get there story straight. Maybe god was a little groggy when he recanted the resurrection to Matthew, mark, Luke, and john. Who all tell different stories. The synoptic problem is just that, a serious problem. It is quite obvious the authors of the gospels (who were most likely not john, mark, luke and matthew) all stole from one another, quite blatantly.



No need for god to mention or tell stories of animals past? No need to mention that humans all share a common ancestry with every living thing? That heavy metals are forged in the crucibles of stars? That there is 300 sextillion other solar systems besides ours? Hundreds of billions of galaxy's? The actual number of pi? Just because the human beings did not have scientific literacy, does not mean that god, who created everything, should not be describing his creation in a little more scientific detail then...."in the beginning...."



Is Genesis meant to be taken literally?
Maybe if you guys keep repeating this fairy tale, it might come true?
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:35 AM   #80
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Re: Crisis of faith

You are here:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: H0m0
Species: H. sapiens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominina

Last edited by VP$IP; 08-23-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #81
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Re: Crisis of faith

Actually, the Bible clearly does talk about dinosaurs. Although we alter the spelling of behemoth and Leviathan slightly, we still use those same words in bibles today. However, tanniyn is always translated into another word when we write it in English. Tanniyn occurs 28 times in the Bible and is normally translated “dragon.” It is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.” Behemoth and Leviathan are relatively specific creatures, perhaps each was a single kind of animal. Tanniyn is a more general term, and it can be thought of as the original version of the word “dinosaur.” The word “dinosaur” was originally coined in 1841, more than three thousand years after the Bible first referred to “Tanniyn.” To make things clearer, we constructed the following table comparing the scientific names with the Biblical names tanniyn, behemoth, and Leviathan.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24

It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.”
“He is the first of the ways of God.”
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point.

“No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.”
“Who can open the doors of his face, with his terrible teeth all around?”
“His rows of scales are his pride, shut up tightly as with a seal; one is so near another that no air can come between them; they are joined one to another, they stick together and cannot be parted.”
“His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth.”
“Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; he laughs at the threat of javelins.”
“On earth there is nothing like him, which is made without fear.”
Leviathan “played” in the “great and wide sea” (a paraphrase of Psalm 104 verses 25 and 26—get the exact sense by reading them yourself).
Leviathan is a “reptile [a] that is in the sea.” (Isaiah 27:1)

[a] Note: The word translated “reptile” here is the Hebrew word tanniyn. This shows that “Leviathan” was also a “tanniyn” (dragon).

Source: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:56 PM   #82
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Re: Crisis of faith

I had a similar childhood. A little less involved in Church than you were, but similarly pushed into church. I was forced through confirmation, then didn't come back for 4-5 years.

While I was living in Seattle with a few guys i worked at the casino with, one of them challenged my Agnostic/Atheist beliefs(or lack there of). Long story short, he convinced me to give faith another try. Not necessarily Christianity, but that was my childhood faith, so it was the first I set out to explore(and disprove).

The more I learned, the less I could write off about Jesus and the Bible. By God's grace I stumbled into Mars Hill Church. The church, Pastor Mark Driscoll in particular, teaches the Bible more genuinely, transparently, and truthfully than anyone or any church I've ever been to. I realized that the Jesus that my previous church was trying to cram down my throat wasn't the right Jesus. It was wrapped in religion, stuffed with ritual, and embalmed in bull*****. Praise God for the scriptures that hold the truth.

RJ, I don't know if that helps or is on topic. I'm sympathetic to what you're going through, and I hope you find truth in Christ. I'll pray for you.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:33 PM   #83
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Maybe if you guys keep repeating this fairy tale, it might come true?
HAHAHAHAHA!!! FASTERING ZIT IS BACK TROLLING AROUND!!!! we are still waiting for you in your other thread from which you have run away cause your ass was owned !

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Old 08-23-2011, 02:46 PM   #84
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by Wizard-50 View Post
I had a similar childhood. A little less involved in Church than you were, but similarly pushed into church. I was forced through confirmation, then didn't come back for 4-5 years.

While I was living in Seattle with a few guys i worked at the casino with, one of them challenged my Agnostic/Atheist beliefs(or lack there of). Long story short, he convinced me to give faith another try. Not necessarily Christianity, but that was my childhood faith, so it was the first I set out to explore(and disprove).

The more I learned, the less I could write off about Jesus and the Bible. By God's grace I stumbled into Mars Hill Church. The church, Pastor Mark Driscoll in particular, teaches the Bible more genuinely, transparently, and truthfully than anyone or any church I've ever been to. I realized that the Jesus that my previous church was trying to cram down my throat wasn't the right Jesus. It was wrapped in religion, stuffed with ritual, and embalmed in bull*****. Praise God for the scriptures that hold the truth.

RJ, I don't know if that helps or is on topic. I'm sympathetic to what you're going through, and I hope you find truth in Christ. I'll pray for you.
Since I'm actively questioning, any experiences from people who have been through something similar is certainly on topic, and potentially helpful. Thanks for your input.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:17 AM   #85
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
Ah yes, the "logical" theism thread in which you refused to clarify basic details of your OP, then claimed to know my beliefs better than I do, and stopped responding to me.

A real tour de force!
LOL
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:34 AM   #86
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
Ah yes, the "logical" theism thread in which you refused to clarify basic details of your OP, then claimed to know my beliefs better than I do, and stopped responding to me.

A real tour de force!
That OP was also a kindergarten level reworking of Pascal's wager. It is absolutely incredible and comical that he brought that up as his prized thread.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:56 AM   #87
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Re: Crisis of faith

I believe in a higher power but not the way some organized business wants me to believe. This is why I always tell people I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but not in organize religions.
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:32 AM   #88
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Re: Crisis of faith

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I believe in a higher power but not the way some organized business wants me to believe. This is why I always tell people I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but not in organize religions.
How do you know about that higher power existing?
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:05 AM   #89
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Originally Posted by JohnVoid View Post
I believe in a higher power but not the way some organized business wants me to believe. This is why I always tell people I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but not in organize religions.
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How do you know about that higher power existing?
Believing =/= knowing
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:20 AM   #90
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Re: Crisis of faith

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Believing =/= knowing
I understand, but the knowledge of some concept must come from somewhere... I am asking about that knowledge of a being called god. Where did he get this concept from if not from religions. My point is that , religions have shared with him this concept of an ultimate being and then he borrows it from them , makes his own beliefs about it.
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