I want to thank everyone for their input and linkage to resources.

Obviously this is something I will have to continue to think about; as I said in my original post, I wasn't looking for an "answer" so much as I was looking to hear from others who had experienced something similar and how they dealt with it.

The "lapsed Protestant" line had me cracking up (not that you were joking)

I think "seeker" is a fine word if that's what you're comfortable with. Seems rather clear you're an atheist but you just don't feel comfortable saying so, which is fine.

I'm an atheist, and I would never label anybody an atheist if she didn't first label herself one. Atheism does not say "atheism is the way." We urge people to rigorously question their teachings and come to their own conclusions. We're confident that people who do that will reject the beliefs that they were indoctrinated with, but they have to make that journey themselves.

You're obviously questioning right now, and all I can say is that I hope you continue to do that, regardless of what your final conclusion is (like someone else said, you may become a deist or agnostic, although the latter is often a label used because they fear the stigma of atheism). If, in your questioning, you reinforce your religious beliefs, then fine. I'd happily debate those beliefs with you, but I'd give you respect for rigorously testing them for yourself, as long as your questioning is in fact genuine and rigorous.

Keep making up stories son, while the mods here rack up your warnings.

Grow up.

hahaa.. let me remind you..

Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Thread

Okay my scenario is flip flop from yours. I raised hell as a youth in High School. Joined the Army and began contimplating the meaning of life. I began to read a bible which I did not believe and praying to a god I didn't knew exsisted. I got invited to church heard the Gospel which is all have broken God's law (10 commandments) and I was guilty and going to hell, I also knew that if I accepted Jesus and God's gift to us that I would be exempt from a life of hell. Needless to say I saved my soul and don't have to worry about hell anymore which is a great relief. I hope and pray that god would prepare you heart to descern what is true and I pray for your soul sincerely. Thanks for serving brother. What is your MOS? I was in 8yrs8mnts just got out hurt my back on a Airborne Op.

So now you can do anything you want and you are saved as long as you believe in Jesus?

what does this have to do with the existance to God just curious I don't see the transition

No that's far from the truth you still have to obey God's law.

some laws or all laws?

As a Christian I may be able to provide prospective on this. If one stops being evil there is still a matter of that person breaking god's laws and is guilty and must be judged and sentenced if convicted hell would be imminent.

Hearing about Jesus isn't enough hell almost everyone has heard of the guy and most believe him to be a great teacher and philosipher. That's not enough to hear of something, for example if I want to be a poker pro and hear of all the techniques and style of play that doesen't make me a pro exactly does it. You have to study gain exp, play and have success. That's the same concept but you must acknowledge cognitively that you have broken God's law and will be guilty therefore accepting in God's act of Love which would be Jesus and calvary. Once you do that then you are free from a life of hell(seperation from god)

fair question imo..the short answer is, that statement doesn't offer a transition!I sincerely wish a clear path existed, but as of now im not aware of any..so instead i offer what is certainly not a professional opinion but is a self-educated POV from a reasonably intelligent?, and genuinely interested person. That being said and having already accepted the uncertainties of Religion i have chosen to engage my curiosities through that of a scientific "lense"...All while hoping a strong enough connection within some area of science will offer us a "porthole" into Gods intentions. (i just cant help thinking tht God must have realised that many of us who are created with deep curiosities couldnt accept him only on "blind" faith) so wether this porthole would be presented through Astronomy or Cosmology maybe Astrophysics etc i cant predict, but as far as im able 2 follow (a fair amount) i pay attention...I attend the University of Youtube every day and i study! My pleasures (besides alcohol, organisms & now poker) come from Leonard Susskind, Steven Hawking from Michio Kaku, etc...Btw Dr. Kaku in his awesome book physics of the impossible; suggests maybe god lives in another dimension or even a multiverse(dealing with the ? of NASA not finding him in the 1950's and on) So this is the intended gain from my curiosity / studies and POV, i really hope for a quantifiable answer within my lifetime but if none presents itself then atleast ill hope for peace of mind. I could say more lemmy know if you want a longer convo...Lucky

I want to ask you some basic questions. I am sure you have some explanation.


What makes you think that there is Hell?

Why should one spend his life in anticipation of attaining Heaven(existence of which is not verifiable)?

Why should I trust the Bible?
If you say that Bible says so, aren't you trusting one source too much? When talking about TOE, creationists reject it coz it has inconsistencies. Isn't that true for the Bible too? All the scientific facts are verifiable to some extent,nothing much in the Bible is verifiable if at all.

What makes you think that there are laws that God expects us to follow? Again,do u have more than once source to support that claim?

If something happens tomorrow and God comes to earth to refute the Bible and Christianity, would you begin to believe in some other religion that God tells you to?

What evidence you have of a GOD existing?(Don't refer to the bible, its not the same as 2+2=4)

I was a 95B, which became 31B as I was leaving (MP). I did 5 years, was in during 9/11 (but was not sent to the sand box through random chance - I ended up attached to a non-deployable unit), and have a bad back as well - repetitive stress injury that didn't heal properly and now the whole thing has gone to hell (pun intended).

Thanks for your service as well.

This is like 8 separate threads right here.

There is something to our life, what it is is none of my business.

That didn't answer my question.

That's actually true. The catch is, you still have to be sorry for the bad things you do.

The thing is, once you believe in Jesus, you WANT to do more and more good things, and less and less bad things.

I would say that whatever crisis I may have had has been resolved. Although I still continue to question things, and think I always will.

I am uncertain as to the existence of a deity, so in that sense I may be labeled agnostic. In my view, it cannot be proven, so if one chooses to believe in one, that is understandable, IMO. There is a certain comfort in it, if nothing else.

But, if you put a gun to my head and asked if, knowing that such existence cannot be proven or disproven, what do you choose to believe, I choose to believe that absent proof, there is no reason for me to believe in the existence of a deity. It adds nothing to my life, and not believing subtracts nothing.

Oddly, or at least I find it odd, relinquishing the belief in an afterlife has been comforting.

Glad to hear it.

I was raised Protestant myself but became an atheist as a teenager. This quote captures my approach to life in general pretty well:

Many times this will lead to answering "I don't know."

"Where does the universe come from?" - "I don't know."
"Where did life come from?" - "I don't know."
"What is the meaning of life?" - "I don't know."

Sometimes the answers are disappointing:

"Do you think you will meet your deceased loved ones again after you die?" - "No. I have no reason to believe that."
"Will the evil be punished and the good be rewarded in the afterlife?" - "No. I have no reason to believe that."

It doesn't matter. I want to believe what is true and not what is comforting.

If it is comforting to think that their may be an afterlife.
Never limit your imagination/creativity to it having to resemble what other people believe.

What exactly do you have in mind for ideal afterlife?

At this point I see no evidence of life after death and think it's most likely that we simply cease to exist.

And I don't really find that particularly troubling. It almost feels...restful.

I'm not one of those people who feels as if life is a never ending series of burdens to be endured and am looking forward to when I can sleep for enternity, but I am comfortable with the idea that when I die, I live on only in the memories of others.

And in my thousands of interwebs posts on 2p2.

I've been through this with my three children (and spent a fair bit of time discussing it on this forum) and really the jury is out. My original view was that it's wrong to teach a child to believe something like a religion (or atheism), that you're essentially 'urging' a belief system simply because it happens to be yours. My way of getting around that was to try my best to teach them to be inquiring, to learn, and to try to figure out what the right questions are, and then to let them decide themselves what to believe. Whatever they choose to believe (even if I disagree with them), I simply want them to have thought it through and reached a considered conclusion rather than it having been the only choice they were allowed.

I tried to argue that it's simply morally wrong to make children 'believe', that I object to marketers trying to inculcate belief systems (brand loyalty), in young children, or politicians doing the same, and religion is no different and shouldn't be treated specially. I didn't succeed. In the end I had no answer to the simple question 'what's the harm?'. My own view is that religion has a net-negative impact on the quality of human life, but that's based on there not being any gods and it's virtually unprovable. Plus, that would simply be urging my own belief system, so I couldn't allow it to inform my approach, neither could I take them to a Christian church (the predominant religion in the UK where I am) when I don't believe in god, nor would I know which religion to choose if I were to just pick one 'in case'.

I think that consequentialist viewpoint might be the only way to view it, and that the right question is 'what's the harm?' and you have to decide what your answer is. I don't believe that a genuinely loving god would punish a child for my decisions so I'm not going to worry that I might have inadvertently 'kept them from him'.

Hi RJ,

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing your journey. Also thanks for bumping...

I don't think you hang out much in RGT so I will fill you in on me. My background is conservative Christian but I have gone through a similar skeptic experience as yourself.

I can sympathize (in theory) with the relief associated with relinquishing a beleif in the after life. My question is: Do you still have a fear in the back of your mind that hell exists and you may end up there.

I feel like the traditional theology that has been drilled into me is kind of a mind****. It is difficult to think rationally when you have the fear of eternal torment hanging over your head.

Do you hedge your bets by kind of telling God that if he exists you do believe in him etc.?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

PS. Not that it matters but are you a guy or girl? I thought I read upthread somewhere you were talking about your boyfriend? or are you a gay guy (which is fine).

Or maybe I misread......

I guess I'll always have an inkling of that fear (OMGOMGOMG if I'm wrong I'm going to hell...)

But I don't talk to "god", no. I can't say that I would never go down that paranoia trail at some point in my life, but at this time, no.

I'm a girl, and I was talking about my then boyfriend, yes.