Atrocities according to whom, you or God?

Which "absurdities" are you talking about? Does the mythology you believe in leave you unequipped to make a specific case?

No. I'm not sure where you got that from.

For having an intellect that is well-equipped for certain other tasks, rather than nothing at all.

I have difficulty trusting the judgement of anyone who thinks he is qualified to do a performance evaluation on God.

Like has been pointed out all people do this its just some have come to different evaluations.

Almost every creation myth may be "incorrect", but that does not necessarily mean that everything stated from a creation myth is "incorrect"; often, there are some elements of "history" or "truth" behind a myth. The one creation account ( "myth" ) I have any confidence in believing is stated in the Torah and the reason I have any confidence that it is true is that somehow there is a deep connection between the Hebrew letters and the creation of the physical cosmos. The non-Hebraic myths may be "spinoffs" of the original.

Even though the Torah may have been composed at a later date than some of the other creation accounts, it's likely that the "first account" in Genesis ( which is Gen 1:1-2:3 ) in its original Paleo-Hebrew form, was composed at a very early date; altogether, there are ten "accounts" that comprise Genesis.

Even if it were true that every creation myth is "incorrect", that does not imply that the "story" or myth has nothing enlightening or useful to say about humanity; e.g., was the "Parable of the Good Samaritan" a true "story" ? [ It's possible that Yeshua constructed this parable well in advance to answer a practical question. ]

Yes, Matthew Henry.

The Mishnah says God purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart so that God could show him His stuff. This makes what God did doubly bad.

A "declaration of war" against false gods? Was that really called for? What does God expect will happen in our hearts when he kills innocent children?

I'll take the "false" gods.

Then what is the purpose of the Bible? Are we not supposed to learn from it? How can we learn from it without evaluating what it says?

So nobody is qualified to evaluate God's action? His words and actions are in the Bible. He has told us what he has done. Feeble though our brains are, we can surely know what murder is. It's not that difficult a concept.

But reasonable people can disagree. Why was killing the firstborn children of every non-Jewish Egyptian not murder?

Take them and keep making your category error, if you must. It's your free will prerogative.

The purpose of the Bible is for God to communicate with His creation.

We do learn from and evaluate what it says. However, trying to Monday morning quarterback God's actions in a way that requires an understanding of His knowledge and intent is absurd.

Murder is unjustified killing, and no one has a better idea of what constituted justice in that situation than the Creator of both that concept and the firstborn themselves.

So we can learn from and evaluate what is says, but not criticize ("Monday morning quarterback") it. We thus must only approve it? If we don't have an understanding of His knowledge and intent how can we judge whether he's a good God or an evil one?

I take it we are just supposed to accept the killing of innocent children because God says it was the right thing to do. One question one more time: Isn't this exactly what tyrants claim?

With respect, why do you reply in riddles? What category error?

Fact: God killed innocent children in Egypt. Fact: He himself says it was because Pharaoh taunted him Fact: He himself says he harden Pharaoh's heart to that Pharaoh would continue taunt Him so that He (God) could bringon the tenth plague.

Question: Explain why this is not murder. Thank you.

I'm done with the thread and already stated it above.

You don't win because you keep pushing a point I have already answered.

Rest in your category error. It's your option but don't waste my time further. Thank you.

If I had a nickle for every time you've said this on a thread and then posted again, it would cover my next car payment.

You have to admit, he has a point. You almost never answer in your own words, and when you do, you're very cryptic, not to mention incredibly condescending. More often, you'll respond with a link (which very frequently you've not read yourself, as they often contradict the exact point you're trying to make).

I don't understand why simple, direct questions can't be answered in your own words. If you're so certain of your opinions, why can't you explain them and defend them without resorting to pseudointellectual vagaries and a flood of links (that you often haven't read)?

You said the plagues were God's declaration of war against the false gods of Egypt. I concur. As part of that war, he wantd to kill all the firstborn of the Egyptians, no matter their age. He warned he would do this. He deliberately hardened Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh would continue to taunt Him so that he could carry out his threat.

Colld-blooded murder by a cold-blooded murderer. Not a god that should be worshiped, but rather one that should be reviled. Period.

Its ironic you don't see the inherent contradiction of your own position about God.

You insist God has to send you a sign and you'll believe although the bible says all the necessary signs were done and are in the bible.


God sent the Pharoah 9 signs before the 10th one. How many does he have to send for an arrogant Pharoah to take notice. He showed over and over again that the Pharoah was surrounded by phonies (sorcerers) while he was the genuine article.

Also how would the Pharoah know that Moses' God was the genuine article without a demonstration of his power over not only death but over life as well. The spirit that killed the first born of the Egyptians not only demonstated power but it demonstrated intelligence in the ability to pick and choose and observe the marks over the doors.

This stuff really isn't that hard. When God speaks you listen. You don't test him. He's the king maker after all. Kings rise and fall every day at the drop of a single word from him. Only an idiot argues with God and doesn't listen to what he has to say.

You can tell things by patterns of actions just as much by words in the bible unless you've already prejudged the biblical personage/being.

You keep ignoring the fact that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't take notice. God interfered with Pharaoh's "heart" to get the result that God was looking for.

You can read Halley's Bible Handbook. Pharoah rejected God's miracles 5 times before any hardening occurred.

There is such a thing as a cutoff point otherwise they wouldn't jail murderers.

Me too. All god has to do is show me a sign that he's real, something incontrovertible, and I'll believe. Deciding to worship him would take some answers about why he used to be such a murderous prick, but if he gives us just one sign, I'll believe.

Right! Now you've got it. Why would anyone believe in god without a demonstration of his supernatural power? Why would we possibly believe in god without proof?

And why did god stop talking to people and showing off his mighty godliness all the time? I mean, he loves us as much as he loved all the people in the Old Testament (well, the ones he didn't kill, at least), so why did they get all these real-world demonstrations and now we're expected to take it on "faith" in the stories in a book that constantly contradicts itself?

I think we've been hosed, personally. Did god get laryngitis or something?

You can read John 15. The word amazing is used 31 times in the 4 Gospels. To be a disciple of Jesus was an amazing thing and also to have walked with him but Jesus promised an even more amazing thing to come. He promised the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The miracle is already here constantly and available to all believers.

Why harden his heart at all?

I've never said God has to send me a sign. Where did I say that? I believe you are correct in everything else you have said above. Indeed, the spirit that killed the firstborn did demonstarte power and intelligence.

And cruelty of an almost unimaginable despicability. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise. It's exactly the way the great villains of history ahve demonstrated power and intelligence, by murder and mayhem.

splendour once again proclaims she's leaving a thread only to return. liar liar pants on fire, imo.

Its not really like jailing a murderer. Its more like killing the first born of a murderer and all the first born who are under control of the murdering dictator to get the murderer to stop murdering even though you could of stopped the murderer with a snap of your fingers right form the start.

I just want to know why if God can harden a hart with know ill effects on free will why cant he do the opposite and bring love to someones hart. Personal my subjective morals tell me that would of been the better way to go.

You might not have said it in this thread but haven't you said it in other threads. I assumed you did because many, many of the regular atheist posters have said as rize is doing right now in a thread that they'd believe if God showed a miracle right now.

I think God is trying to train the people he can reach to eschew cruelty. He's not cruel but he is powerful and he is sovereign.

I was just watching a very interesting Discovery Channel documentary on killer whales, their intelligence and their variability in hunting techniques based on location and available prey. They hunt in social groups and talk to each other almost constantly. They said it was formerly thought nothing could hunt a great white shark but killer whales can. They figured out a way to drown the great whites by flipping them over. A great white only has instinct. Orcas are the more serious predator because they work cooperatively in groups and have intelligence. At the end they summarized just how sinister intelligence can be. Sinister and powerful compared to mere instinct.

Since God is so far above us I think he figured out a long, long time ago that a pitfall of intelligence is evil and its far better to just be intelligent and benovolent than intelligent and quasi-evil.

That God is all good and all powerful is a concept that is most likely the most socially powerful redeeming quality in all of mankind's history and civilizations. Its a pity you want to portray God as a monster and run counter to the historical view. Seems like a child wanting to get his own way and/or refusing to grow up. Reminds me of Annie Duke who in an interview said as much. She went to Columbia but said she opted to play poker because she didn't want to grow up.

I don't think God hardened a bunch of male deer

Whoops i suck.