If you don't have enough imagination to hold the devil accountable then don't bother directing post towards me any more. We just have to agree to disagree.

The devil doesn't say anything in the bible because God won't let him. It's God's book. But the devil speaks volumes in human history.

false, learn about your own bible before you try to tell others about it.

so anything bad that happens is the devils fault?

and anything good that happnes is gods good grace?


so why did god have the first born male of every egyptian killed in the bible?why did he kill all both noah inthe great flood?

are you saying that killing when done by the hand of god is justified?

and if you are, do you not realise that that is the exact justification, the 9/11 bombers, the crusaders and numerous other religious zealots have used throughout history?

and why is it the devi'ls fault that there are kids in africa starving? it's god creation, not his.the devil had nothing to do with it.

I'm not doing an apologetics debate. I'm plain talking so take your literalist nitpicking up with somebody who cares to debate.

3 or 4 lines spoken in Genesis and Job and the NT at Jesus' Temptation doesn't constitute a strong voice in the bible.

What it does show is that the devil's trick is always through 3 channels though: 1) the lust of the flesh; 2) the lust of the eyes, and 3) the pride of life to try to make a person fall. Because that's the tack the devil used on Adam and Eve and that's the tack he took with Jesus at the Temptation.

God doesn't let the devil have a frequent voice in his book because the devil is a pathological liar.

And its the devil's silence that makes everyone overlook him.

Jesus was also on to the devil's tricks because he says on the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 to avoid murder, adultery, swearing, revenge and hatred of enemy because they are related to 2 states that defile the human heart: lust and anger. He warns us to watch our inner feelings because that's precisely where the devil manipulates the human heart the most.

God's not going to let a manipulative liar post in his book. He's trying to get us to focus on him so we are off the devil's hook as much as possible.

Are you going to address the point we are discussing? You said I needed to understand the background of the things that happened in the Bible, so I've provided background. Essentially, God did what he suspected Pharaoh was going to do: God murdered innocents.

Don't you think God should be held to a higher standard than "what goes around comes around"?

It is precisely his violence, his vengeance, his temper, that led me away from him. He is not a god worth worshiping.

So to answer Pharaoh's "taunt," he killed all the firstborn children of every Egyptian, bigwig and commoner alike.

It's murder. Period.

is "sorry i misspoke" or "sorry i overgeneralized" not in your vocab? each time someone points out when you do this, you go on a self defensive super rant.

Every person is dependent on God all the time for everything that is the message of the Old Testament right after the New Testament message of "Salvation is here through Jesus Christ alone".

Pletho might have a better explanation of the devil's works than I do. I probably haven't studied that subject in as much depth as he has. The subject of the devil is probably the most problematical issue in the bible but without a belief in the devil huge swathes of the bible don't make sense.

I'm not going to argue every instance someone brings up on this board about the OT because every time they do it I have to spend considerable time researching the context and when I come up with the refutation I'm dismissed anyways.

You need to learn to research the bible yourself from someone who actually cares to know God's heart. A critic doesn't care to know God's heart.

Guilty as charged.

I frequently overstate things and don't proofread enough because I write the posts too long and am expecting the computer connection to die out on me.

splendour, why do you assume none of us have read the bible or indeed pondered the question of God?

i will say this. while i find the god hypothesis extremely unlikely if i ever did want to believe in god it certainly would not be the murderous vengefull angry god potrayed in the bible.that god to me is a hypocrtical self serving mudering egotistical B*******.

But it's a good thing that these stories are man made fiction anyway. if god exists i would tend to believe he would be more like the god M.scott peck describes in the road less travelled and sequels. some of scott's ideas are completely nuts, but thats what i would imagine a divine creator who loves us to more like than anything in the bible.

+1

+1

It's a crap plan.

Pertaining to the death of Egyptian first-borns, correct me if I'm wrong but if an Egyptian family just happened to paint sheep's blood on their door (for whatever reason) then the Angel of Death would have passed them over, correct?

Does this not imply that God is arbitrarily killing many people?

yep

I've read the Bible. I read it when I was a believer. Even then, I found Yahweh a mean-spirited deity. It stands to reason that he's that way, he was the god of people in a tough, desolate environment; thus they conjured up a tough God for whom the wilderness was a punishment.

You're telling me what's in God's heart. How would we know such a thing? By what he says and what he does. Here he's killed the firstborn of every Egyptian and he says he's done it because Pharaoh taunted him and to teach Pharaoh a lesson. He doesn't say the devil made him do it, or the devil did it; HE did it. He's proud of it. He does it a lot.

All of you are seriously in need of some one on one bible training from someone who has extensive bible training and also is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I've said it before and I will say it again. The illumination comes from the Holy Spirit. Literalness only scratches the surface of the bible and that's why most people that truly want to understand the bible study with believers.

Unfortunately I can't work through every biblical question you have in this medium.

I would suggest you seek out a seriously qualified OT scholar to study under.

Oh and some people disagree with this stance of mine because most people don't seem to suffer the degree of misinterpretation most atheist posters on here suffer from. That's why I say you find the best believers you can.
Even in ancient Hebrew times the Torah students studied together personally in groups because they believed the Shechinah was present and guiding them whenever a pair of believers or more congregated for the purpose of studying the word of God.

The Devil speaks plenty in the Bible.

And if the Devil speaks in history even once, it's because your god allowed him to.

People are fallen beings.

Christ gives people the chance to overcome that status through acceptance of his grace.

You simple won't addresss the issues being brought up.

I'll try one more time.

According to what He himself says, God decided to kill all of the firstborns of every Egyptian because Pharaoh insulted him. Furthermore, He deliberately hardened Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh would be difficult and thus God could show His power by killing all the firstborns.

What possible justification can there be for such behavior?

He always has his reasons.

But I don't feel like going back and reading and analyzing them.

You need to get with believers so you can steal some of their light til you get your own going. The God question is the most important one of all and you really can't afford to be wrong about it. Good luck!

I think you have been ......

hes trying to "get with you", you are a believer...but you won't answer his question...

this isn't very convincing, or even really an answer...

I'm in one of my burnt out phases on religion questions.

There are days after reading religious posts that my mind is as tired as Erik Lindgren's after a go at a WPT final table.

I don't doubt he always has his reasons. And here's what I think they are:

Western civilization had its foundations in the ancient Near East. The earth was hostile and nature would grant little. It is to be expected that, in this environment, God is seen as hostile himself, he will be a capricious war god. He will speak to humans in the terrible syllables of natural disasters; his words are volcanic eruptions, thunderstorms, earthquakes, the killing of the firstborn. He will control nature in the way that humans long to. The worst punishment inflicted is expulsion from Eden into the wilderness, where eventually races of blackguards live, who are evil and must be destroyed because they taunt.

It's an ugly picture, and it leads to the ugliness of westeren man's spirit against the wilderness and against the Other.

For me, it's a god that must be rejected, not just not worshiped, but reviled. As should his followers who claim that his crimes cannot be questioned because he is all-knowing and we are but children.

I don't believe any of that.

Isaiah 11: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...11&version=NIV

Nice post by andyfox, and to quote scripture in response is weak.

I've noticed many of the Christians here will just quote the Bible when they have no cogent rebuttal, as if that's relevant or convincing. The only context in which that is relevant is when the discussion is specifically about what the Bible says, for example the previous thread about whether the Bible sanctions slavery (it does).