Well, how is it? I mean, how do you define "religion" here? Here's one: Scientology and Catholicism are religions, in common cultural parlance. "Christianity" just refers generally to people who have a belief in Jesus Christ in common. There's no Christianity Church, you know. There's a Baptist Church (well - many types) and all the adherents of those religions can be fitted within the framework of "Christianity." But I'm not going to share too much theologically with a Baptist. Some who think they are Christians don't think I am. We might both be included under Christianity, but it's obvious we don't belong to the same religion.

Allright, I get it. "Christianity is a group of religions" may be more precise, if a little nitty

Maybe. But you know, there are a whole lot of Christians who don't belong to any religions. My daughter is one. I don't want to nitpick either, just sayin.'

This makes no sense.

Ok i watched it. Im glad im not smoking anymore because that shirt would messed with my mind.

Between that and your last post i see what you're saying on your idea of faith and works. But it is what i was saying all along. That is faith to you is inborn selfless works. <--- i know you disagree.

For me the the second man is acting in a selfless way but his actions of being good are still selfless works. If he was an atheist he would have no faith in God he is doing good for goods sake because he is a good person. Where you would say he does have faith in God but its unknowing faith that he is unselfishly good.

With the second man. Could he even be capable of works with your idea of faith? I dont think so. All of his actions are faith. His inborn unselfish faith ate his capability of doing works.

I understand what your saying it just doesn't make sense to me.


I also have to take back what i said about your side winning out. With all the spreading of the message of the kingdom stuff. It's still just as destructive to the OTHER as salvation by belief.

So is Islam a religion ? Or is it just the sects of Islam like sunni and shiite that are ?

I know our discussion wasn't going anywhere but i just had one more thought i wanted to add.

Could an atheist or any non believer even adhere to the law when he has no belief in it ? Wouldn't they by definition be living the law whenever they do good ? And therefor wouldn't all of their good deeds would be done out of faith not works ? I think with the way you have it only believers could do works and faith where the non believer can only act out of faith.

You continue to be stuck on this legalistic type mindset. Atheists adhere to the law all of the time. To continue the example of the "law" of taking care of the poor, many atheists (and people in general) give to charities for reasons other that the feel it is the right thing to do (tax break, looking good, etc.). So yes it is possible to adhere to the law without believing in the law.

The faith is why you do something and the works is what is done. The actions themselves are worthless if you do them for the wrong reasons. Also, the faith is dead if you do not follow through with the works. In other words, practicing what you preach.

Think of it this way. There could be two identical people, one has a theological belief in God and the other does not. It is my contention that the end result (whether they enter into an eternal relationship with God or ultimately be put out of their misery and be destroyed.) will be the same. So in the end with all things being equal the theological belief does not save you nor does it destroy you.

My thought was always that people did it for the pleasure they received from doing it and for the consequences that such an action might imply (God's good grace, e.g., or just an internal feeling that you did something good). So, in some way (I always believed) people gave to charities because it benefited them in some way. You listed some other possible reasons, but I think you forgot the biggest one.

No offense meant or anything but if your going to skip entire post in the conversation then id rather not have it.

Wait, what post did I skip? I did not mean to.

The one were i comment on the video you linked.

I'm going to assume you took this definition from wiki since it is the only decent source I can find with the statement "The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction."

If so you skipped the first line of the wiki that says:
"A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth."
Which would of course make christianity a religion.

Anyway I don't see how you can take any definition of christianity and religion and make the claim that atheists are silly for thinking of christianity as a religion

This concept of good. Where does that even come from? Ultimately, it comes from within. That person is responding to something inside himself. He, being an atheist, would not call it God's will etched into his heart. But if I am right, then that is exactly what it is. So he is responding the the law that God has put in all of us. He just does not call it that. Whether he aligns that with some sort of eternal theological belief or not is inconsequential, imo.

I think that I answered this in my last post. But I do see faith and works very closely tied together. Works is the inevitable byproduct of faith.

I am not quite following.

Ok thanks for responding. It will take me a little bit to get back because im kind of busy right now but i will get to i as soon as i can.