When I first started posting here I had a theory about how Christianity was being urged on young vulnerable children in UK primary schools as part of a general effort by the church of England to ensure that we raised the next generation of Christians in this country. I even used to use the dreaded 'i' word. I've since realised, thanks to the concerted efforts of many posters here, that that's an extremely hard claim to prove and that all I had really was an unproved theory. Moving from 'educational and simply a reflection of the society we live in' to 'deliberately promoting' is a tough argument to prove.

That's still all I have really, an unproven theory, but I wanted to post the image below as 'food for thought' since it still fails to prove anything but I think might be an eyebrow raiser. It's taken from one of my son's Key Stage 1 (Aged 5-7 years 1 & 2 in UK primary schools) 'Activity' colouring books. Is it still just an example of an innocently intended educational activity? (along with others that I haven't posted) Or perhaps is this indicative of the deliberate focus (proven) on Christianity in our primary schools, one that is actually intended to promote Christianity rather than educate about Christianity? In KS1 children are only taught about Christianity. Other religions aren't introduced until KS2.

So, what is one of the things that Christians do? I imagine seeing something like this in a Chinese child's colouring book with the question 'What is one of the things that communists do?' and I would feel the same way, that's it's promoting a way of thinking rather then being innocent and educational. Would you?



By the way, I have no idea what in hell my son actually drew there. No pun intended.

So you're saying that you don't really have good reasons to believe your theory. Yet you seem to actually believe it's true.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=175

Do you believe that such an exercise implicitly means "therefore, you should also do these things?" For example, if it were instead to read "What is what one of the things Muslims do?" and an acceptable answer is "Pray to Mecca" that you would think that this is promoting that kids should pray to Mecca?

Are you aware of how much cognitive capacity a 7 year old has? Kids are at a stage where most need to think very carefully to understand the difference between different types of quadrilaterals (a rectangle is not square, but a square is a rectangle). And for some, a square tilted on one of its corners is a diamond, and that shape is different from a square.

This is interesting. Hot on the heels of me creating this thread, I see stories popping up all over the place about how 'China bans Ramadan: Fasting and ‘taking part in religious activities’.

What's interesting is that the Chinese are taking what I'm saying one step further and clearly seem to regard the mere engagement of individuals in a religious celebration as tantamount to 'promoting' that religion. I'm inclined to agree, I'd go so far as to say that I regard most religious activities as having that purpose, amongst others. Of course, the Chinese are total hypocrites in that they engage in exactly the same practices in order to further communist ideologies/doctrines. I wonder what they would make of a primary school colouring book that asked 'What is something that Christians do?'.

You should move to Canada MB, my Christian friend was complaining about the same thing, that they were pushing his children towards secularism.

This strikes me as a way to teach children about different things, like "what do firefighters do?", "what do christians do?", I would only be perturbed if this was the only one of these pictures.

Sounds pretty unlikely, what is his specific complaint? A failure to push a religion, isn't necessarily a deliberate attempt to push secularism. Often it's the exact opposite, an attempt to be impartial and objective. I've been following a story about a ruling in Canada that schools aren't allowed to push a Catholic agenda in their RE classes, is that what he's talking about?

(Actually, moving to Canada has great appeal to me. I'm an ex Ice Hockey player and they worship hockey there, and Canada is a beautiful country. It seems to be like the USA but with most of the craziness missing)

Christians and firefighters are the same in what way? What if the picture had asked 'What is something that Conservatives do?' (of the politician variety), would that also be the same thing? After all, we need to educate our children about politics right? This activity book wasn't being coloured in specifically during an RE class, this was during 'general' school syllabus time.

This picture was one of only three in this particular activities book. Also, can you explain why primary school aged children are not taught about religions other than Christianity for the first two years of their education?

It's night and day between the US, politically, culturally, socially, religiously, in pretty much every aspect you can imagine. It is very liberal in general, but at the same time people are sensitive to not offend other beliefs. In general of course.

There are public school and private schools. The public sector has both, Christian schools, and public (neutral) schools, and the private sector has both as well.

I don't know what my friend's exact complaint was, but only that they were not being neutral in the public school, they were being anti-religious. I think it's a one-off though, likely a particular teacher, this should not be a condemnation of the entire sector.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, maybe they simply have an agenda. It only occurred to me that it may be one picture of many, simply teaching concepts. I think it's important whether or not there are other pictures to the final conclusion.

As they were only three, I concede it is dubious. I don't know much about the education system there to make any other conclusions.

The Chinese aren't the only hypocrites...

So let's make this absolutely clear: If you ask someone what another person does (where that person is part of a category of people), you believe that there's reason to worry about an underlying conformity agenda?

Man, I wish I still had the picture of God I drew in primary school. It was awesome.

State Churches are a mixed curse. On the bad side they violate the principle of secularity and they have a tendency to creep into official politics (and school curriculums) in a manner I suspect are not fully understood by our American peers on this forum (Canada has been mentioned as well, but it has no official state church either).

On the other side these state churches also tend to have a moderating effect on religosity. While not being a cure for the more outlandish sects, it will keep them somewhat in check; a state religion in a liberal democracy will have to circle in on some least common denominators.

So I guess it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Well Christians are suppose to be crusading the Muslims out of Europe right now...

Yeah, life would be a lot simpler here if we had a legal separation between church and state like they do in the USA. There all they have to do is show that a state institution is promoting a religion and they have a legal case. Here I could show that and people would still shrug and say 'so what?'. Our primary schools actual have a legal obligation to hold an act of worship at least once every school day.

How is that?

So, if the exercise was "Steve is a firefighter. What is one of the things that firefighters do" , you would be accusing firefighters of having an agenda to recruit the next generation of firefighters in this country? That there was an evil plot behind the scenes , where firefighters sit around and plan to corrupt and brainwash britains children?

Firefighters are a recognised group or part of society. Christians are a recognised group or part of society.The difference is that, because one is a religion, YOU are having a knee jerk reaction.

You may be right and there may be a sinister plot to brainwash britains children, but this exercise doesnt show it.

if children are taught about homosexuality, is that tantamount to promoting that particular sexuality?

There is probably a plot, but it is unlikely that it is sinister. In all likelihood you have quite a lot of people that wholeheartedly feel that their Christian beliefs should be a part of the school curriculum, but it is probably a belief born out of good intentions more than anything else.

We had the same thing in my country. It took 20 years of legal battles and an eventual appeal (on grounds of human rights) to the International Criminal Court of Haag to correct it, but even today you can still see State Church teachings creeping into the public school system when certain political constellations gain popularity.

The obvious answer, which I'm going to give anyway in case it's not obvious to you, is that it would entirely depend on how that was being done.

My children are taught about homosexuality in their Sex Ed classes whcih is an appropriate context and it's done in a non-biased and educational manner. No problem there then. Suppose it was being done in the same way as with Christianity though, this is the situation that you would have:

Everyday, the children would obey the legal requirement to worship homosexuality. A homosexual would come into the school on a regular basis to tell the children how wonderful homosexuality is and teach them about the details of a homosexual lifestyle and encourage them to pursue it. References to homosexuality would pervade their lessons, not just in the Sexual orientation lessons devoted to teaching exclusively about homosexuality, but generally. The school would be owned and run by a homosexual organization. The library would contain homosexual literature. Most importantly perhaps, the children wouldn't be told that there was any other way of living than homosexual for the first three years of their education, then 50% of their Sexuality class would be devoted to the other sexual orientations and 50% to homosexuality.

Hilarious. Got any more?

lol. Yes yes I would! Damn firefighters with their brainwashing and indoctrination!

No, I wouldn't really Neeel. But if it had been 'What is one of things that people who vote conservative do?' then I would have similar suspicions. Especially in conjunction with everything else that happens in the schools wrt Christianity. Firefighting is an occupation, not a belief system. Tell me, do you really consider firefighting to be comparable to religion?


Sinister? Plot? Brainwash? FYI - Definition of 'rethoric'

I think you need to reread the OP, I don't use those words.

The voice of reason. I haven't used the words 'sinister' or 'plot' and I hope that Neel using it isn't going to make people think that I have. I think the system is so entrenched that the people responsible for perpetuating it don't see it as anything but business as usual, just a perfectly normal activity.

I live in hope....

You almost have a point there if it weren't for millenia of persecution and waging wars in the name of religion until we recognized that we should keep the power structure of the state and religion separate.
At the top of my hat I can't think of wars fought in the name of firefighting.

I just dont think this particular sheet is evidence of religion making incursions into secular state business, although I am sure it does happen.

You keep saying this, as though you have proven that christianity is being taught a different way, when you have actually admitted that you have no proof at all that it is.



Why would "what is one of the things conservatives do" be a bad thing?

Yes, I am dramatising for effect, but this is effectively what you are accusing/insinuating, even though you have no proof.

Have you requested your children be removed from the religious education portion of their education? Religious education is a defined standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_Stage_1

So what is "religious education" if you're not even allowed to attempt to describe the religious practices of a religion (the one that is most common in the region)?

Ummmmm... yeah. Asking what a Christian does is clearly tantamount to that.

Wouldn't it be so much simpler intellectually to admit that you just have an irrational hatred religion instead of making stupid arguments to justify yourself?

Perhaps not wars, but firefighter unions have crept into politics and have done actions that are harmful to local economies (see Las Vegas Firefighters).

And there have been plenty of examples of firefighters doing things that are harmful to society in direct rejection of their stated ambitions, like starting fires. These things endanger physical lives in a significant manner.

The ironic thing is there has actually been much discussion and media coverage over here lately (the UK) about 'sinister plots' to get religion into schools but it has been about Islam rather than Christinaity. The so called 'Operation Trojan Horse' has been a strange episode all round.

Well I'm glad you admit to it but it's really not necessary. I think it just hurts the conversation. If you think I'm doing it please say so but I try not to.

Yes, but I said as much in the OP. If your goal is to show that I have no 'proof', consider it achieved, a long time ago. If your goal is to show that I have no grounds for my suspicion, then you have a lot of work still to do.

Well Neeel, the RE syllabus in UK schools is 50% Christianity and 50% everything else, so there's a big difference right there.

You didn't respond directly to my description of how it would if 'homosexuality' was taught in the same way that Christianity is. I simply substituted homosexuality for Christianity in all the ways in which Christianity is represented in our primary schools. I think when you read when I put it's quite startling the ways in whcih religion pervades our schooling system, you actually helped me when you gave me a context which really highlighted that. Did you read it?


The issue is one of bias. It feels like the subject of Christianity is 'worked' into many aspects of our primary schooling system and that activity sheet is an example, and I wonder why this happens because I don't think it's easily explained away as an artifact of Christianity being the predominant religion in the UK. I don't think that is happening by accident. Or perhaps you think it is? Just wondering.

What if the question had been 'Sarah and Paul come from a secular family, what is one of the things secular families do?' What would you think?

It is somewhat ironic, and more than a little hypocritical. The UK government is trying to prevent Islam from doing exactly that the Church of England has been doing for centuries.

Yes, I think you do it by implication and the language you use.


Thats your proof of a conspiracy to push christianity in UK Schools?


I didnt respond because it was silly. There is no way of going from your sons drawing, to your description of how X is taught.Your description in no way follows from asking "what is one thing christians do".

Are you claiming that christianity does all the things in your description? And yet, you have admitted you have no proof?

You are claiming that this one single sheet, is proof of an effort to push christianity. If this was the case, then a single firefighter sheet would be proof of an effort to push firefighting.

Depends what you mean by "accident". You are insinuating a conspiracy here, do you want to be more explicit about what you think is happening?



I would think, what a stupid question to ask.