Both Religion and science require a belief in God. - Page 7 - Religion, God, and Theology

Most ideas that aren't mainstream don't pan out so it's expected that science would be resistant without definitive, measurable proof.

What I wonder though, is how long will the medical community have to continue to fail before they take a step back and question some of their fundamental assumptions? Anybody who follows the latest developments around research into illnesses such as autism and Alzheimer's can see that it is pretty bleak.

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07-07-2014 , 03:11 PM

#152

RollWave

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Originally Posted by craig1120

...before they take a step back and question some of their fundamental assumptions?

they already do this all the time.

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07-07-2014 , 03:17 PM

#153

craig1120

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Originally Posted by RollWave

they already do this all the time.

The good ones do but many don't if it threatens their worldview. You won't convince me otherwise.

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07-07-2014 , 03:26 PM

#154

dereds

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Originally Posted by craig1120

The good ones do but many don't if it threatens their worldview. You won't convince me otherwise.

So you aren't prepared to take a step back and question some of your fundamental assumptions?

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07-07-2014 , 03:30 PM

#155

craig1120

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Originally Posted by dereds

So you aren't prepared to take a step back and question some of your fundamental assumptions?

See now that's just trolling. I've been exposed enough to the medical community to make that statement. It is not an assumption.

Also, have you read my posts at all?

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07-07-2014 , 03:34 PM

#156

Husker

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Originally Posted by craig1120

What I wonder though, is how long will the medical community have to continue to fail before they take a step back and question some of their fundamental assumptions?

Life expectancy has increased hugely. Some diseases have been almost completely eradicated whilst other conditions that were previously fatal can now be treated routinely.

We have been failed

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07-07-2014 , 03:40 PM

#157

craig1120

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Originally Posted by Husker

Life expectancy has increased hugely. Some diseases have been almost completely eradicated whilst other conditions that were previously fatal can now be treated routinely.

We have been failed

You guys don't let me get away with anything now huh. Everything has to be precise. I'm, of course, aware of that and didn't mean to make it seem so general. The aspect that aims at curing mental and chronic illness is failing.

Communication fails and trolling increases dramatically when things get emotional doesn't it?

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07-07-2014 , 03:43 PM

#158

dereds

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Originally Posted by craig1120

See now that's just trolling. I've been exposed enough to the medical community to make that statement. It is not an assumption.

Also, have you read my posts at all?

I have but if someone experienced in the field won't change your position it seems you're position is entrenched the point that you won't reflect on it. I'm not saying you should be prepared to change your position on a whim.

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07-07-2014 , 03:45 PM

#159

craig1120

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My position of the observed behavior I've seen in the medical community?

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07-07-2014 , 03:47 PM

#160

dereds

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Your inference to the wider medical community you haven't observed.

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07-07-2014 , 03:49 PM

#161

craig1120

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Ok fine I'm willing to change my position based on future observation. I'd hope that you would at least give me enough credit to assume that. I concede. You win. Satisfied?

Like I said he wouldn't be able to convince me of what I have already observed right? That was the point.

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07-07-2014 , 04:22 PM

#162

dereds

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I'm not interested in winning I just thought it a poor way of ending a discussion. Oh and pretty easy to troll. Apologies.

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07-07-2014 , 04:24 PM

#163

Husker

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Originally Posted by craig1120

What's 'trolling' about posting a pretty straightforward response to your incorrect claim

Also things certainly aren't getting emotional at my end given that I think that was the only post I've made in this thread.

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07-07-2014 , 04:59 PM

#164

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It's petty. That may be your first post in this thread but it's not your first post toward me in the same manner. Care to discuss any of the ideas I've brought up or share anything of value of your own?

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07-07-2014 , 05:06 PM

#165

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I don't even remember replying to any of your posts. Personally I don't think there's much, if any, value to be had on the ideas you've brought up but others have already responded who have more knowledge on the subject matter than I do (such as TD). I was merely responding to a point that was so obviously wrong.

Last edited by Husker; 07-07-2014 at 05:07 PM. Reason: That's me been 'emotional' and 'petty' now :(

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07-07-2014 , 05:35 PM

#166

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I don't want to be attacking well intentioned people, but for those that are even a little aware and connected to how things are operating with especially pharmaceuticals, I don't think it was that egregious of a statement. The problems we are facing are just so huge, I wish there would just be a little more sense of urgency in leaving no stone unturned. Admittedly, I can get overly passionate about this topic though because it is something I've invested a lot into.

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07-07-2014 , 06:13 PM

#167

well named

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Originally Posted by craig1120

Here is a video of a biologist breaking down the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjj0...jS46wKVl_FS1vg

Also, have you read this article?
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....e-epigenetics/

I don't have the attention span for an hour long youtube video. Re: the Nat. Geo article it's possible it's a misunderstanding on my part as far as what you meant but I don't think Epigenetics has to do with DNA mutations. Actually, as it turns out, the wiki page states that epigenetics is "the study of heritable changes in gene activity that are not caused by changes in the DNA sequence".

So when I said I saw no causal connection between introspection and DNA mutation, I did not have any epigenetic process in mind, and certainly if we take that term broadly enough it's at least not nonsensical to suggest a connection

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07-07-2014 , 06:28 PM

#168

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It wasn't my intention to try to make my case in full. I was trying to see if there was interest based on the (loose) connections I have presented so far and the potential of it. I get the sense the general reaction is mild annoyance though. Overall, I just wanted to make the point that I'm a big believer in introspection/self awareness/meditation.

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07-07-2014 , 07:01 PM

#169

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tough crowds around these parts

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07-07-2014 , 07:48 PM

#170

Naked_Rectitude

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Originally Posted by well named

I don't have the attention span for an hour long youtube video.

30 minutes at 2x normal speed...

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07-07-2014 , 10:02 PM

#171

zumby

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Originally Posted by neeeel

if they dont exist as an ontologically fundamental substance or thing, then what do they exist as?

Processes. The same way that "life" is not a fundamental substance or thing (an elan vital, for example) but a particular process that certain configurations of atoms undergo for a bit.

As I've mentioned before, you seem to make the following argument

P1) Only fundamental substances are real
P2) X [where X = virtually everything] is not a fundamental substance
C1) X is not real

Essentially, everyone else in the world disagrees with your unjustified P1, so you're never going to get anywhere with this line of argument. Unless you start actually doing the work and justifying it

Last edited by zumby; 07-07-2014 at 10:08 PM.

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07-08-2014 , 06:14 AM

#172

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Originally Posted by zumby

Processes. The same way that "life" is not a fundamental substance or thing (an elan vital, for example) but a particular process that certain configurations of atoms undergo for a bit.

I would agree that this is more "correct", but, there are no separate processes. Its all one process. a human "process" doesnt exist in and of its own right. Life is just a label we give to bits of the process.

Also, if you see that things are processes, why do you still want to apply concepts like morality, responsibility, punishment and justice, which seemed to be what you were saying when we discussed this the last time?

Quote:

P1) Only fundamental substances are real
P2) X [where X = virtually everything] is not a fundamental substance
C1) X is not real

Essentially, everyone else in the world disagrees with your unjustified P1, so you're never going to get anywhere with this line of argument. Unless you start actually doing the work and justifying it

Im not sure I even agree with P1 :P
Is there a fundamental substance? I dont know.

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07-11-2014 , 07:20 AM

#173

zumby

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Originally Posted by neeeel

You sound just like a mystic. Back up your points with empirical evidence and sound philosophical reasoning.

Quote:

Also, if you see that things are processes, why do you still want to apply concepts like morality, responsibility, punishment and justice, which seemed to be what you were saying when we discussed this the last time?

Why wouldn't I?

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Im not sure I even agree with P1 :P
Is there a fundamental substance? I dont know.

Again, just making quasi-mystical pronouncements about how "thoughts don't exist" isn't impressive or interesting. Present a coherent ontology and/or philosophy of mind, or stop interrupting threads with deepities.