Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious
I'm suspicious that you are trolling, but I will humor you either way. How is intelligence existing within the universe proof that the big bang is intelligent? Is your premise that anything that is intelligent must have been brought into being by intelligence or something intelligent? This is itself an argument that needs justifying, since through natural selection, life with no evidence of intelligence developed into intelligent life.
I dont think we know yet the balance between determinism and randomness that would best explain our universe's way of being, but this does not support or refute an argument for a God.
We need to be careful not to obfuscate the definition of intelligence. Can you define it using a dictionary website for a sanity check for us?
Can i clarify that you mean the big bang is intelligent and not a God that caused the big bang?
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Wasn't speaking to the "G" word and I'm not advocating the "big bang " theory. One thing I do finsd interesting is that the scientists speak of a beginning cycle of "extreme heat" which fits with other perceptions of "beginnings".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
If these men are correct and are using intelligence (which they are) to bring forth their speculation then they are presenting that same intelligence which mandates within the universe.
If I throw a ball and it follows a parabolic path and I bring the mathematics of parabolas to bear I would be using intelligence but the behavior would also be considered "intelligent". quietly..the mathematical axioms and machinations within the human being are within the entire universe as man is in the universe as a part of and yet distinct.
Going far ahead, the question is; does man create his mathematics or intelligence or is it part of the creative process with mankind involved ?
This idea of the "Spirit Within" which mathematizes (Erf is somewhere here) is philosophically sound and has a history which I forgot. I'm using mathematics as a face of intelligence for it is the easiest for us to understand.
If you demand an "Unmoved Mover" or some such concept at the beginning of time(according to the premise of this thread) then I won't argue but in science they are dealing with concepts which only allow weights and measurement within time. You are not allowed to speak of the "G" word.
In fact you are only allowed to use the concepts and forms which are brought forth from our world of the senses which includes all machinery, telescopes, microscopes,radar detecting devices, etc... this unequivocally means that matter created matter though the individual scientist might argue this for he may be a Buddhist or Hindu or transcendental Christian but all results are weighed and measured and others anathema.
This is why it is called "scientific materialism" and does carry an atheistic bent. The entire structure of present science is material and in fact looking at our present culture this material or atheistic bent is our environs but we move along oblivious of its lack of moral tone.
The religious have brought forht a history of revelation and in fact have lost their revelatory comprehension of the spiritual world or the 'Kingdom of
God". They believe the scientists and do not appear to be attempting to bring forth the truths of the spiritual world within a scientific mind set . These truths can be gained and in the long run these very truths will be gained through science when the individual scientist leaves the "material' medium of exchange.