ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
Because Jehovah was thoroughly disgusted with what man had done, he destroyed them by drowning. Using the drowning method ended up affecting everything else that was on the ground.

"{5} Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. {6} And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart." (Genesis 6:5-6)



Recall that God did feel regrets after he destroyed humans by drowning. He gave the rainbow as a sign that he would never again use drowning to destroy wicked people, because it ended up causing other creatures to be destroyed along with the guilty humans.

"And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: 'Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man's account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.' " (Genesis 8:21)

"{8} And God went on to say to Noah and to his sons with him: {9} 'And as for me, here I am establishing my covenant with you men and with your offspring after you, {10} and with every living soul that is with you, among fowls, among beasts and among all living creatures of the earth with you, from all those going out of the ark to every living creature of the earth. {11} Yes, I do establish my covenant with you: No more will all flesh be cut off by waters of a deluge, and no more will there occur a deluge to bring the earth to ruin.' {12} And God added: 'This is the sign of the covenant that I am giving between me and you and every living soul that is with you, for the generations to time indefinite. {13} My rainbow I do give in the cloud, and it must serve as a sign of the covenant between me and the earth.' " (Genesis 9:8-13)

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
Obviously, some of the plants survived being underwater because at that time, certain plants could survive underwater.

Clearly, there were no dinosaurs in the vicinity of Noah and other humans. If that were the case, they would have killed people. The animals that Noah was instructed to take inside the ark were animals that we see today.

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
Animals were not carnivores at that time. They all ate grass and plants only. According to the Bible, it was after the flood that animals became carnivores. Also, animals can survive on less food if their activities are restricted since they're not burning as much energy. We see this in bears who survive off their fat during hibernation.

You will have to figure out the part about the insects and birds on your own now that it's clear that you want the minutest of details explained to your satisfaction.

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
Who told you there were 16,000 animals on the ark? The Bible said Noah was instructed to take 7 sets of one type and 1 pair of unclean animals. All that's required is a pair of dogs, for example. After the flood, that single pair of dogs would produce variations of themselves. The same can be seen with humans. All humans in existence are descendants of Noah's three sons.

BTW: The ark had two levels.

Jeez man, why not just say god shrunk them all down to action-figure size if we're just going to change everything about the animals as we now know them.

Yep, looks like he enjoys salads:

He definitely should of used the blinking out of existence method. Far less cruel.

ALTER2EGO -to- BATAIR:

"Blinking out of existence method"! God doesn't wave a magic wand or blink things out of existence. That sounds like something one would see on Harry Potter.

Drowning deaths are not what I would consider cruel as it doesn't take long to die from drowning--at which point, the suffering immediately ends.

Okay cool. He can blink a universe into existence but not blink animals out. GOTCHA.

And you don't consider drowning all the newborns at the time cruel? GOTCHA.

Or Genesis.

Quote:

Drowning deaths are not what I would consider cruel as it doesn't take long to die from drowning--at which point, the suffering immediately ends.

No its cruel and brutal. If that is the least cruel way an omnipotent God could come up with to mass kill humans, color me unimpressed with his omnipotence. I could think of a few dozen less cruel ways.

Btw in a mass flood not everyone dies of drowning. Some would be battered to death by flood debris as they were fighting for their last breaths.

Thankyou for taking the time to respond.

So each of the six days might as well be defined as 'epochs' or stages in the creation of the modern universe. That seems much more reasonable to me, but it leaves me confused, specifically regarding the following verses...

If for the first few 'days' of creation we are actually dealing in epochs of hundreds of thousands of years I am led to believe that grass, herb and tree existed hundreds of thousands of years (or possibly millions, or indeed billions, for time is undefined for God) prior to the advent of man. This also seems reasonable to me.

Further, Genesis goes on to say...

My confusion is this... Since it is your assertion that man was created towards the end of the sixth day, and since it is also your belief that each day 'must have lasted hundreds of thousands of years' then presumably you can accept at least the possibility that animals may have existed hundreds of thousands of years (or possibly millions, or indeed billions, for time is undefined for God) prior to Man.

Is it your belief that this is how it happened or, prior to Eden, did God create all these things in a special place, a world of ideas perhaps, and then populate this earth all at once with the things he had taken days/epochs to create?

My second confusion is time in relation to Adam. Since Adam was created without sin and thus without death (or maybe just without the awareness of death - I am unsure), does time as we know it pertain to Adam (and Eden) before the fall from grace? If it doesn't, then how long did Adam dwell in God's grace before he consumed from the tree of knowledge? 10 years? 50? 50,000? Again, I am unsure.

The bible seems unclear on this point.

I understand the motivation behind god's wrath, I was merely unclear about his chosen method...

I also understand that God made this covenant after the fact, however this does nothing to change the fact that He chose to visit destruction on all living things for a mistake/sin that was man's alone. This is very difficult for me to reconcile with a just and all powerful God.

Furthermore, if your assertion is that God feels 'some regrets' then does this not indicate a certain fallibility on his part. That he recognised not the full reach of his actions? Is it your belief that God can make mistakes?

Jehovah, as Creator, has the right to destroy those that he deems as being wicked and unrepentant. The newborns would have grown up and done exactly what they saw the adults around them doing. That's why parents should consider their behavior, as it affects the outcome for their children.

Fair enough, I was under the impression that the dove brought back an olive branch and olive trees cannot, to the best of my knowledge, exist underwater for prolonged periods such as half a year. I am also unsure that said tree would have had time to grow fresh branches and leaves since the flood's abatement, but I am happy to be corrected on this point.

I was under the impression that Noah was instructed to find two of everything, not just those animals in his vicinity...

And according to genesis this is what comes to pass for...

Now to me, Either Noah was instructed to save at least two of everything or he wasn't and the bible explicitly states that this was instructed of him. It seems clear to me from reading these verses that this would have to include dinosaurs. Could you explain to me how it doesn't because I am truly at a loss.

If animals were not carnivorous before the flood why would dinosaurs in the vicinity of Noah have killed people - as you assert they would? Also could you point me to the relevant part of the bible where it states that it was only after the flood that beasts became carnivorous, because I cannot find it.


Sorry, I don't think I understand. Are you saying that Noah took only 7 sets of clean animals and one pair of unclean animals on the ark for a total of 16 animals? and that from these 16 animals we observe the variation which exists today. This would be ridiculous so I suppose not, but then I don't know what you mean.

The 16,000 number seems to be cited in many Christian sources which attempt to sustain the Noah's ark story as fact as opposed to myth. I think it tends to originate from this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Ark-A-Fe.../dp/0932766412

ALTER2EGO -to- BATAIR:

Well, guess what, you aren't the Creator. So you are hardly in a position to complain about what method of killing Jehovah used on those that were described as wicked and unrepentant.

Look at the condition of our present world.
1. Terrorism is now the rule of the day.

2. Everybody's competing to create nuclear bombs that will annihilate all life on earth.

3. There's mass starvation in Africa because of greed and mismanagement.

4. There's genocide in one country after the other.

5. Organized drug lords with their gangs of criminals are out on killing sprees, fighting for turf and killing anyone who stands in their way--including the innocent, etc.

In other words, the conditions we now live in are far worse than it was at the time of Noah. Yet, God is patient with people and waiting to see who will repent--just as he was patient with people back in Noah's day. The Bible says Noah preached to the people trying to get them to repent, and they refused. So they got what they asked for: death.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, and people post stuff to me complaining about that as well. As far as people are concerned, when the criminal behavior is not affecting them personally, it's: "Oh, just leave them be. They're not bothering us."

Next thing you know, the criminal behavior has mushroomed--because nothing was done to nip it in the bud. Then the same people that originally said: "Oh, just let them be, they're not bothering us," are complaining: "Why isn't something being done about those criminals?"

ALTER2EGO –to- WILLIE WIN:

Your conclusion is a logical and correct one. Since the Bible makes it clear that God is eternal—he was not pressed for time where he had to rush and do things. The precision seen in the natural world is evidence that a lot of thought went into the creation of our world. I present examples of this in my thread entitled "Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Evolution?" Here is the weblink to page 8 of the thread. My post will be the last one, at bottom of the page. After you've had a chance to read it, you may also want to look at my opening post on page 1 of the same thread.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...63/index8.html


ALTER2EGO –to- WILLIE WIN:

No, you're in error. Land animals came into existence on the sixth creative day—just like humans. By then, the Garden of Eden had already been prepared for them.

ALTER2EGO –to- WILLIE WIN:

The time span of literal 24-hour days applies to sinful humans with a limited life span. The time spans of "a thousand years to a day" and thousands of years to a day apply to Jehovah because he has eternity and is not limited by time.

God told Adam at Genesis 2:17 in so many words: "the day you eat from the forbidden fruit, you will die." At that point, Adam had eternity ahead of him and had not yet committed any sin. So at that point in time, God was speaking from God's viewpoint of "a thousand years to a day."

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:

As Creator, God has the right to destroy what he creates. If that's something you cannot accept, then I don't know what to tell you.

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:

I used the wrong choice of word when I said Jehovah felt regrets for destroying the land animals along with the wicked humans, especially since the scriptures do not say that he felt regrets. The Bible simply says that God said in his heart: "never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done."

"And Jehovah began to smell a restful odor, and so Jehovah said in his heart: 'Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man's account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done.' " (Genesis 8:21)

In any event, feeling regrets is not the same as saying "I made a mistake" or "I feel remorse." If that were the case, God would have resurrected the animals back to life. He did not.


However, let me remind you that the Bible does indeed say God felt regrets--not about killing the animals but because he made humans. This was due to the gross wickedness of humans prior to the global flood. Are you now going to argue that Jehovah made a mistake in creating us simply because he was sorry about the way humans rebelled and disappointed him? The Bible says it hurt him to his heart--considering that he'd placed Adam and Eve in paradise and they and their resulting offspring had now caused the earth to be "ruined" and to be "filled with violence."

"{5} Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. {6} And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. {11} And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the true God and the earth became filled with violence. {12} So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth." (Genesis 6:5-6; 11-12)


In other words, the statement in the Bible at Genesis 8:21 about God saying he would never again destroy all life on earth because of rebellious humans is simply to indicate that God was sorry he had to take such harsh actions and that it was not something he enjoyed doing. The same principle is stated in another scripture where Jehovah will have to act in the future and destroy the wicked--something he doesn't look forward to doing but just the same, it has to be done.

"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Ok, so plants, fish, mammals of the sea and birds were in existence prior to the advent of man but land animals were not.

so the timeline is something like

plants>>>fish/birds/sea mammals>>>land animals/humans.

and, at least from Genesis 1, it seems as though land animals were brought forth before man was created (or at least it lists them first, which may be irrelevant) in the sixth and final epoch of creation. You yourself point out that logic would suggest that man was created towards the end of this epoch.

Also, since we have established that each of these epochs could last for at least hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions or billions, is there anything in your theology that rejects the notion that this last, 6th epoch of creation may have lasted just as long as the others?
_______________________________________

Also it seems to me that genesis speaks nothing of method, but a timeline of hundreds of thousands to millions of years implies process rather than constant instantaneous creation. As you said, God does not simply wave a magic wand. Does the attribution of a 'process' or 'processes' to God's work seem reasonable to you?