You seem to be impressed by the distinction between "theorizing" and "affirming." I don't see a significant difference here. For instance, Aristotle (as well as Plato, Ptolemy, etc.) certainly affirmed that the earth was spherical as part of their theorizing. As for the dating involved, I don't see what that matters. My point is that this was not an uncommon idea. I don't think that the only explanation for Aristotle believing that the earth was spherical was that he was inspired by God. So why would I think this about Moses or Job (or the actual author of Job for that matter).

Anyway, you asked for documentary evidence that some of the ancient Greeks believed that the earth was not hanging on anything. I gave you such evidence. Why are you still arguing?

Are you someone we know on this forum?

I think we rely on better methods of interpretation.

Okay, feel free to present this long list of scholars.

Lol. Do you really think that we didn't know that the earth was not held up (by wire or something?) until we invented space travel? Anyway, this is becoming pointless. You are reading entirely too much into a single poetic flourish here.

Wait, so you think God really is out in space somewhere looking down on earth? Also, as I already pointed out, other people at the time had similar views...

Yeah, the problem though is that the book of Job doesn't say anything about gravity.

Yeah, you made a bunch of false claims about what ancient people believed. That is not secular evidence.

This only shows that you aren't clear on what is meant by "circular argument." I'll also note that I have not claimed that Isaiah means a 2D circle, although that does seem like the more natural reading of the text to me.

I am not playing the same game you are. You want to have a fight where all that matters is that you persuade others to accept your own view. As such, you don't seem to care whether if you misrepresent the views of others. I am not interested in such a discussion.

ALTER2EGO -to- ORIGINAL POSITION:
You didn't give documentary evidence that the ancient Greeks believed the earth to not be hanging on anything. Your exact words were that Aristotle felt the earth was at the center of the universe--which is a far cry from saying it hangs upon nothing.

In Greek mythology, the earth was help up by a giant they called Atlas. I notice you conveniently bypassed what I pointed out regarding Aristotle's false theory about earth being the center of the universe. It was because of his falsehood that the Roman Catholics turned around and began executing people who did not agree that the earth is the center of the universe.



BTW: How could I possibly know anyone on this forum when I only just joined? Does anything in my expressions resemble those of anybody else you've had here in the past? I find it curious that you would engage me in debate, and then turn around and ask me such a question. Why do you ask me that?

ALTER2EGO:
If my claims were false, why would I have presented weblinks and quotations from secular sources, indicating my statements are historically correct? You, on the other hand, have presented nothing but your opinions and the opinions of your "scholars."

ALTER2EGO:
It seems you are the one who isn't clear about what's meant by "circular argument"--when it's applied to you. Your argument is that you don't believe the book of Isaiah was written before the prophetic events he described and that more than one persons wrote the book of Isaiah. You said you believe this because scholars said it.

When I asked you to present evidence for why your scholars said it, your response is that "they are experts on this type of thing." So you are basically using the statements of your scholars to prove the other statements of your scholars. That's known as circular argument. Your scholars didn't present any independent evidence to prove what they're saying. Everything they say is based solely upon what they choose to believe.

ALTER2EGO:
So now you are a mind reader besides other things. Interesting. If I didn't care about what I'm saying, it seems strange that I would have posted weblinks so that people could confirm everything I said. Meanwhile, you've presented nothing more than your opinions and the opinions of your "scholars" that the book of Isaiah was written by more than one person--after the occurrence of the prophetic events.

Then you turn around and insist Aristotle said the earth hangs on nothing when in fact Aristotle didn't say anything of the kind. He said the earth is the center of the universe. Being in the center of somewhere is not saying it hangs upon nothing.

Aristotle's false statement about earth being at the center of the universe resulted in the deaths of people during the Middle Ages, when the Roman Catholics began charging people with heresy for rejecting the falsehood about earth being the center of the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wn6Et4Fu88

Okay. I guess I don't see a meaningful difference. According to Aristotle, nothing is holding the earth "up." That seems to be pretty much what is at issue here.

I am talking about Greek science and philosophy, not mythology. As I demonstrated, some ancient Greek writers believed that the earth was spherical and that it was not held up by your giant. I bypassed your claims about Catholicism because they have nothing to do with whether or not people in ancient Greece believed that the earth was a sphere, or whether it was held up by something. Your bringing this up is just a silly debating trick as it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing.

I asked you because your of your style of posting and your SN.

Original Position, why do you even bother? It is obvious he is here to preach his nonsense and not to actually have honest discussions.

Specifically, your claim that some significant ancient writers didn't believe that the earth was spherical is false.

Nope. I'm relying on the authority of scholars who've studied the issue themselves to determine who is or is not the author of Isaiah. I haven't looked at the evidence myself. There is nothing circular about that.

However, I've mostly stayed out of your discussion of the authorship of Isaiah, as it is not really relevant to the issue here, so I don't see why this matters.

Now, since you never addressed my criticism of your argument, am I to take it that you are dropping it?

I didn't say that you don't care about what you're saying. Rather, you seem to have no desire to try to fairly understand my viewpoint or engage with it on its own merits.

Okay. I'm not really interested in pursuing this further unless you have something further to add as it seems that way to me.

A good example of why you seem more interested in stupid debating tactics than honest discussion.

ALTER2EGO -to- ORIGINAL POSITION:

Nothing that Aristotle said was in reference to earth hanging upon nothing. He and the other Greeks who came after him spoke with reference to what was above the earth--their view of the stars and naked-eye planets. They made absolutely no reference to the fact that the earth is floating in mid-space because they could not have known that unless they had the ability to hover over earth in a space vehicle.

Moses is the only human who made mention (at Job 26:7) that the earth is "hanging upon nothing"--indicating it is in mid-space and held within it's orbit by no visible means (which we now know are gravitational forces).


BTW: If you had paid attention to the content of my posts and how I express myself, you would have known that I've never been on this forum. Even people who use the same "style," such as writing the names of each person in the discussion, as I have been doing, do not express themselves in the same manner within their posts. Once I remove myself from a forum, I never return because I have no desire to.

I bet my money someone from 2+2 created this account to troll around...

No. Alter2ego is not more ignorant of logic, not worse at reasoning, and not more stubborn than other JWs. He's actually very typical.

He believes his sect of 6+ million members is the one true religion on earth. The council that runs it is made up of about a dozen men, give or take a couple, who are the direct spokesmen for God on earth.

The policy hardens and softens at times, but in general, JWs are either strongly discouraged or almost forbidden from seeking higher education. Sometimes trade schools are OK, but college is a no-no because a) there is very little time left before Armageddon*, so spending years at college would be a waste of time, and; b) you only get your head filled with falsehoods spread by Satan.

That arrogance and disgust toward academics you're detecting in his posts... it's all genuine. The entire earth is under the power of the Wicked One, and tens of thousands of scientists in pretty much every discipline are working for (or mislead by) Satan. The typical JW honestly believes he knows more about biology than a PhD biologist, more about biblical history than a PhD historian, more about radiometric dating than PhD chemists and physicists.

But fear not, a lack of a college education does not hurt a JW. Everything they read in their bi-monthly magazines is the direct word of God, passed on by his Faithful and Discreet Slave--a group of men who live cloistered lives, admit no women to their ranks, and didn't have their first black member until the 90s**

Thus the decades-long work of tens of thousands of geologists, physicists, and chemists worldwide, establishing the age of the earth at over 4 billion years is nothing when set against a half dozen octogenarians, some of whom may not have finished high school, who read the six days of Genesis (a day for a year), and added up the ages of everyone from Adam to Noah to conclude the earth <13,000 years.

* Armageddon has been "right around the corner" since the 1870s. They've predicted Armageddon probably a dozen times since then; now they're more careful not to give specific dates.

**A man who led the PR campaign to defend the Watchtower Society against claims that they were protecting child molesters in their ranks. Per their interpretation of the Bible, unless there are two witnesses to an act of molestation, they will take no action. Yes, you read that correctly; a JW man who is clever enough not to molest a young boy or girl with two other people in the room at the time, will not be punished. They have gone so far as disfellowshipping young girls who keep accusing a man after a tribunal of local congregation elders have declared him innocent for lack of witnesses. JWs are fanatical about not taking each other to court, including not pressing charges with police. Everything is to be handled internally, so as not to tarnish Jehovah's name.

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Humans cannot foretell the future with any certainty. Time and again their efforts at prediction fail miserably. So a book of prophecies that came true has to attract our attention. The Bible is such a book.

Many Bible prophecies have come true in such detail that critics claim they were written after the fulfillment. But such claims are untrue. God, being almighty, is fully capable of prophesying. Biblical prophecies that came true are evidence of divine inspiration, not of late authorship. The Bible contains close to 2,000 prophecies. We will look at three outstanding prophecies that came true--providing additional proof that the Bible is God's word, not just man's. Below is the first prophecy. The reading is a bit lengthy, but in order for me to get in the important details, it had to be done like this.



INFORMATION PARAGRAPH #1: Hezekiah was the Israelite king in Jerusalem in 732 B.C.E. During Hezekiah's rule, the Israelites were being threatened by the powerful Assyrian nation. Eight years earlier, in 740 B.C.E., the Assyrians had become the world power and were on a campaign in which they began conquering various nations. The Assyrians seized the cities of Judah and threatened to capture Jerusalem, the capital of Judah--where Jehovah's temple and Judah's king were located. (Isaiah 36:1-2, 13-15, 19-20; Psalms 83:18) (Source: THE BIBLE: GOD'S WORD OR MAN'S?)
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org...
http://www.answerbag.com...


INFORMATION PARAGRAPH #2: King Hezekiah prayed and asked God to save him and his people from the powerful Assyrian army which had been sent by Sennacherib the king of Assyria. God responded to Hezekiah's prayer and saved Jerusalem by using a single angel to destroy 185,000 Assyrians in one night. After that deadly night, the Assyrians immediately withdrew from Judah and Jerusalem. (Isaiah 37:15-18, 20, 36-38) (Source: THE BIBLE: GOD'S WORD OR MAN'S?)

"{15} And Hezekiah began to pray to Jehovah, saying: {16} 'O Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, sitting upon the cherubs, you alone are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth. You yourself have made the heavens and the earth. {17} Incline your ear, O Jehovah, and hear. Open your eyes, O Jehovah, and see, and hear all the words of Sennacherib that he has sent to taunt the living God. {18} It is a fact, O Jehovah, that the kings of Assyria have devastated all the lands, and their own land. {20} And now, O Jehovah our God, save us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, O Jehovah, are God alone.' {36} And the angel of Jehovah proceeded to go forth and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. When people rose up early in the morning, why, there all of them were dead carcasses. {37} Hence Sennacherib the king of Assyria pulled away and went and returned and took up dwelling in Nineveh. {38} And it came about that as he was bowing down at the house of Nisroch his god, Adrammelech and Sharezer, his own sons, struck him down with the sword, and they themselves escaped to the land of Ararat. And Esarhaddon his son began to reign in place of him." (Isaiah 37:15-18, 20, 36-38)


INFORMATION PARAGRAPH #3: Despite this show of strength from Jehovah, a few years later, King Hezekiah displayed a lack of confidence in God by leading the king of Babylon to think Hezekiah would form an alliance with the Babylonians. Hezekiah did this by displaying all of his wealth to the Babylonians. The Babylonians did not worship Jehovah. By exposing his wealth to the Babylonians, Hezekiah was telling the Babylonians that he trusted them and that he considered them to be allies or friends. An alliance would mean that the Babylonians would defend Jerusalem against other invaders. This gave the impression that Hezekiah did not trust God to protect him against invaders. In response, God sent his prophet Isaiah to deliver a message to Hezekiah concerning the coming destruction of Jerusalem. This prophecy was fulfilled 100 years later. (Isaiah 39:1-6) (Source: THE BIBLE: GOD'S WORD OR MAN'S?)

"{1} At that time Merodachbaladan the son of Baladan the king of Babylon sent letters and a gift to Hezekiah, after he heard that he had been sick but was strong again. {2} So Hezekiah began to rejoice over them and proceeded to show them his treasure-house, the silver and the gold and the balsam oil and the good oil and all his armory and all that was to be found in his treasures. There proved to be nothing that Hezekiah did not show them in his own house and in all his dominion. {3} After that Isaiah the prophet came in to King Hezekiah and said to him: 'What did these men say, and from where did they proceed to come to you?' So Hezekiah said: 'From a distant land they came to me, from Babylon.' {4} And he [Isaiah] went on to say: 'What did they see in your house?' To this Hezekiah said: 'Everything that is in my house they saw. There proved to be nothing that I did not show them in my treasures.' {5} Isaiah now said to Hezekiah: 'Hear the word of Jehovah of armies, {6} "Look! Days are coming, and all that is in your own house and that your forefathers have stored up down to this day will actually be carried to Babylon." "Nothing will be left," Jehovah has said."'" (Isaiah 39:1-6)


INFORMATION PARAGRAPH #4: Back in the eighth century B.C.E. when Hezekiah was king, it may have seemed unlikely for that prophecy to be fulfilled. When Isaiah gave the prophecy, Babylon was not powerful enough to conquer Jerusalem and carry off Jerusalem's treasures, and Assyria was then the world power. One Hundred years later, however, the situation changed. Babylon replaced Assyria as the dominant world power. By then, Judah had become so degraded, religiously speaking, that God withdrew his blessing and protection. Now another prophet, Jeremiah, was inspired to repeat Isaiah's warning. Jeremiah proclaimed:

""{9} here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even sending to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them [the Babylonians] against this land and against its inhabitants. {11} And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."" (Jeremiah 25:9, 11)

About four years after Jeremiah uttered that prophecy, the Babylonians made Judah part of their empire. Eight years later, king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. All the city's wealth, and the Jews themselves, were carried off as captives to Babylon--just as Isaiah and Jeremiah had foretold. (Jeremiah 25:9, 11) (Source: THE BIBLE: GOD'S WORD OR MAN'S?)


CONFIRMATION FROM ARCHEOLOGY THAT THIS PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED:
The Archaelogical Encyclopedia of the Holy Land notes that when the Babylonian onslaught was over, "the destruction of the city [Jerusalem] was a total one."

Archeologist W.F. Albright states: "Excavation and surface exploration in Judah have proved that the towns of Judah were not only completely destroyed by the Chaldeans [Babylonians] in their two invasions, but were not reoccupied for generations--often never again in history." Thus, archeology confirms the shocking fulfillment of this prophecy. (Source: THE BIBLE: GOD'S WORD OR MAN'S?)

It's probably not a good idea for a Jehovah's Witness to talk about prophecy. How did the years 1914, 1925, and 1975 go?

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
You're right. I made a mistake with the clean and unclean animals.

"Of every clean beast you must take to yourself by sevens, the sire and its mate; and of every beast that is not clean just two, the sire and its mate;" (Genesis 7:2)

ALTER2EGO -to- WILLIE WIN:
The six creative days in Genesis were NOT literal 24-hour days because the Bible makes it clear that God—who has all eternity—does not count TIME for HIMSELF according to the short human time span of a literal 24-hour day. Whenever the term "a day" is applied to Jehovah, it is counted in units of thousands. Below are two examples:

"However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

"For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night." (Psalms 90:4)


In other words, each of the six creative days must have lasted hundreds of thousands of years. Since humans were created on the "sixth day," and according to Bible chronology, humans have only existed about 6,000 human years, logic tells us that Adam and Eve were created towards the end of the sixth creative day.