But I have not picked a religion that believes that Gandhi is going to Hell.

Also, assume for a minute that God actually does allow only one religion to avoid eternal punishment and all others are doomed to Hell. I would consider that evil. Let's face it. If God is evil I am screwed one way or another, we all are. I have no way to know what religion to pick and no hope that even picking the right one will work in the end. So that really is not a counter argument to my path or even a factor that can be used by me to pick a religion. So do not worry about it.

I must have misread your statement then , because I took it as if you claimed that there is no evidence confirming the claims of an atheist that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Give us your best evidence... go on..


So you don't understand science and therefore atheists are wrong.. great arguments..

Also, allow me to pose a more direct questions to the theists in this thread (thank you for responding, btw.)

Let's use an example of a hypothetical man living in... rural northeastern China. This man has never heard the words Jesus Christ before, never been exposed to the Christian teachings, yet lives his life in a perfectly acceptable, moral way. He is genuinely compassionate towards others, and tries to improve the well-being of those around him. He is also... a Sikh, we'll say, although it really doesn't matter for the sake of this post, as long as he isn't Christian.

In your world view, Yahweh has punished this man throughout his life because he has never been exposed to the "correct" religious teachings. At death, the fun begins... he is now subject to an eternity of torture... no correction, it's not jail, the sole purpose is to punish. He disobeyed a commandment, worshipped another God(s), and is subject to anguish for eternity. Can you, as a follower of Christ, still accept this being to be an utterly moral, good creature, when situations like this occur by the billions in your world view?

And regarding the whole genetic counter-point, what was Yahweh's purpose in creating a being, knowing full well he wouldn't be exposed to the proper teachings because of geography, just so he could torture him in Hell? To me, the genetic idea that Craig discussed only makes the Christian God that much more immoral... creating beings just so he could torture them, knowing full well that they wouldn't get a chance to correct their misfortune. This is an absolutely disgusting characteristic, to me. And please don't dismiss this and give us the "God is mysterious" excuse, that game got old a while ago.

Ahh the good old Pascal's wager.. debunked 1000000000000 times. You assume that God will actually care that if you believe in him or not, why?? Best logic? rather no logic at all..

So you cherry pick what Jesus said and then decide to follow only the things you like... good job.. How about the idea that Jesus is God himself? If he is God and he commanded all those immoral acts in the Old Testament which he actually never stated as Jesus that were to be forgotten, forgiven or that he did ask people to do incorrect things and therefore he is sorry for that. Yes, he cursed a fig tree, what idiot does that? Jesus surely showed that he lacked some reasoning... It's highly unlikely that God would be this dumb....

A lot of Christians would disagree with you.

I agree.

Not entirely correct. You could win the religion lottery, and happen upon the correct one.

There are any number of rationalizations which Christians make with regard to this particular issue, which I'm sure you're aware of. The main one being God will lead you to the correct religion, if you only listen hard enough.

therefore how does this claim make any sense?

That is actually poor logic... So there are billions of options and you decide to pick one direction that even though you don't know this is the right one you still make a claim that this choice is the best choice? sounds silly..

I disagree with the bold. If God is evil then there is no winning. Maybe for a little while you are ok, but trusting in evil is a losing bet. Eventually you will be made to suffer.

Picking a religion was not the choice I made.

Non sequitur. Whether his rules are unjust (from our perspective) is irrelevant. If he only allowed people in who could recite the Oscar Mayer Bologna Song, would not, in and of itself, keep those that could from enjoying eternal bliss.

You're picking one theistic position out of billions possible...

I use to be a non-believer myself despite being brought up in a Catholic family and attending Catholic school K-12. I currently consider myself non-denominational and attend a church that does not have a religious affiliation. We are simply Christians and all that matters to us is our relationship with God.

As for the question posed by FLAGG, I think a proper analogy for that situation would be where you are driving on a road and get pulled over for speeding. Regardless of whether or not you knew the speed limit or thought it was higher, you are still at fault and have committed a traffic violation. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Also, for all you atheist out there:

When I was doing some soul searching of my own and didn't really believe in God, I asked an old professor how we could possibly know that living our lives according to Gods will would secure our seat in a heaven that (at the time) I couldn't be certain of.

His reply was simple, non-subjective, and held no bias. He plainly posed the question: "If we live our lives walking with God and commit ourselves to him, then die and find out there is no heaven.. then what have we lost? If on the other hand we deny God and live our lives by our flesh, then die and find out there IS a heaven.. have we not lost everything?"

What if the punishment for committing a traffic violation was eternal torment? The question is not about being ignorant or not, its about whether its a fair and just system. You seem to think it is. You also seem sure that you are on the right side of that system, what makes you think that?

Ah, pascals wager.....again.

You call yourself Christian, and other Christians will say that you are not a Christian because you don't believe in the same things they do.. So how do you know you are really a Christian and you are actually doing what God of the Bible requested you to do?

So your professor pulled a Pascal's wager on you and you fell for it... If your professor was a Muslim and would refer to this tricky 2 choices argument would you also then become a Muslim? Since he convinced you to chose Christianity or was it the easiest THEISTIC option for you so you just rolled with the punches?

Not really. This is meant to answer you and asd.

I will make it simple.

I assumed there was a God and prayer for guidance. That was my choice.

The guidance I believe I received has lead me to my current state.

If there was no guidance than my choice was random and I am no worse off for my effort.

If an evil God sent damaging guidance than I am in trouble, but with an evil God I am in trouble in any event.

If a benevolent God sent beneficial guidance than I am better off for the effort.

The net is a gain under the assumption that following an evil God's bad advice is not worse than doing nothing. But I think that concept has merit.