Well theres a surprise

Circular reasoning is flawed reasoning. Do you find this convincing-
1) I just got a C on a paper
2) I'm an A student
3) I don't deserve a C
4) I just got a C on a paper
5) I'm an A student
6) I don't deserve a C
etc.

It is circular. None of it disproves the rest of it. The propositions are in dispute, so you can't use them as evidence in your argument.

Also suggesting you need to be baptized to see God, is saying you need to be forced into faith when you don't believe it to believe.
There is no choice in that, as it is either ignoring your reasoning (which God gave you), and blindly following people you have no reason to.

Failing to see this is failing to reason. Reasoning is not a sin. It is not wrong. God cannot beat reasoning.
Can God create a rock so big he can't move it?
Do you see the contradiction? It is not a problem though; as God cannot beat logical facts as if he did our universe would not function.

so humility is not a trait of an INFJ?

edit: and also, is INFJ an actual thing that is real? or is it like SQ?

I believe she mentioned before that she took an online test.

Here's one if you want to try it yourself:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

According to the test, this is what I am:

Your Type is
INTJ
Strength of the preferences %
Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging
33 38 12 44

It's Jungian psychology.

Everyone has a personality profile.

I just took the test. I'm an ISFJ. Seems like a nifty little nugget of information but I like to think I'm a more complex person than just labeling myself with 4 letters. Also, I can easily see that designation changing depending on my mood and how I feel when clicking a few true/false buttons. So I guess it seems to me like something that I would never dare use to define my character (like IQ).

You know society has this funny little saying it goes:

"You are what you eat."

In fact I take that to mean that you are what you identify with. Isn't that what little children do when they identifiy with fireman and say they want to be a fireman when they grow up or a little boy identifies with a famous baseball player through hero worship and wants to be like him. Doesn't he intend to grow into him?

In 1 John 2 it says:

Christ Helps Us

My children, I am writing this so that you won't sin. But if you do sin, Jesus Christ always does the right thing, and he will speak to the Father for us. Christ is the sacrifice that takes away our sins and the sins of all the world's people.

When we obey God, we are sure that we know him. But if we claim to know him and don't obey him, we are lying and the truth isn't in our hearts. We truly love God only when we obey him as we should, and then we know that we belong to him. If we say we are his, we must follow the example of Christ's. (Contemporary English Version)

Jung's typology has about as much to do with contemporary psychology as the Ancient Greek concept of the four bodily humors has to do with modern medicine.

It makes a point though and allows you to start to consider things and your position in life relative to the world by contrasting yourself with it.

Sometimes the individual is the last person to understand himself.

I trust God to fix me rather than human psychology or psychiatrists because psychiatrists themselves are flawed.

Sigmund Freud the Father of Psychology is a pretty messed up character himself. If you research into his background he was the victim of his father's abuse.

So you've got to wonder how accurate Freud was and did any of that inaccuracy come from his own internal damage. Freud's theories were just a starting point for thinking about human nature.

I believe God's statements though are from the end point of human nature. He knows more about how to fix us permanently then anyone in the world...more than Jung, Freud, Maslow, etc.

I know this personally. I was able to overcome negative thinking just by reading the bible and putting it into practice so the bible did prove itself to me...I just had to put it into action.

Note: if in explaining this concept I come down too hard on psychiatry I don't mean to...psychatry is a very helpful profession...it's just it tends to undermine people's ability to see God's work in human nature...

Psychology's moved a bit past theorists like Freud and Jung; even then, people like Wilhelm Wundt and William James probably have better claims to being the father of psychology.

The weaknesses of Freud's theories is that they weren't very well grounded in empirical reality, and the same can be said of Jung. Personality tests developed from Jung's theories have relatively poor psychometric properties - they lack good reliability (the ability to get the same, or similar, results with repeated measurements) and validity (the ability to measure well-defined psychological constructs).

Now, maybe from a biblical point of view it's not important for concepts to be backed up by scientific and statistical evidence, but when you're talking psychology, it definitely is. And Jung's typology, despite its extraordinary popularity, is not well-supported by current research.

But with your last few statements, you seem to be disowning the use of personality tests to support your views anyway...

I'm glad reading the bible was an effective tool for you, but you have to admit that this would not work for everybody, especially not for non-Christians. In fact, if you consider that Muslims and Hindus probably also get therapeutic benefits from reading their respective holy texts, you may wonder if that benefit actually derives from a Christian divine source, or indeed any divine source at all (I know which interpretation I'd choose).

Well imo the world is always at spiritual warfare. It's a huge appearance vs. reality war game.

God usually busts through to his believers in bits and pieces of personal revelation but the more pieces he gives you the more you can piece together how he operates in the world.

For example the image of kneeling. Kneeling puts one into a literal position of humility where you can pray. Prayer is where God really teachs one humility.

But God tells Abraham to look up. Prayer starts with Jesus Christ kneeling in humility where he is knighted by the Father and ends with the believer standing up and looking at God as he really is. Of course we go through a lot of heart attitudes like pledging our undying love to the King....that's only natural...a King has to know who's really loyal before he can give anyone an office to perform...

If you read Virkler's book 4 Keys to Hearing God's Voice or Dr. Richard Booker's "Celebrating Jesus in the Biblical Feasts" or read Dr. Stephen E. Jones summary on the laver you will see that God works through pictorial imagery (visualization) in the mind's eye.

He is raising people up his way in this world. It's just people have trouble coming out of the spiritual blindness and deafness and need to hyper focus on his Word to figure out what he is doing in his believer's lives. But what he is doing is personal training...custom fitting the individual to fulfill God's purposes...

What does this mean?

According to societal pressure. If humans evolved different, and kneeling was what the kings did to their subordinates, kneeling would be a position of power and pride

You've started ...'ing again; I know this is just how I read it, but it really makes me read you as confused. It is up to you, it is just the perspective i get.

You can't compare a King to God, because God can apparently read our souls; so we do not need to show our humility or loyalty because he should know it.

So God is training us to be his tools, and has the power to make us who we are, and what decisions we make; but we have free will? God gave us a choice, but made it so easy for you the INFJ but not me the ENFJ.
Do you see anything wrong there? If not, why not?

Please do not take this as debating; i'm trying to understand, and if you approach it like a debate, you will not be honest.

Oh and I was under God's repair work a long time before I came out as a Christian so any comparison between your life and mine is only partially accurate. We learn some things from each other but we don't learn everything from each other. Life, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are all counselors and teachers.

Once again, you are crediting your holy book/religion/deity with an experience for which there is absolutely ZERO empirical evidence. Furthermore, you can demonstrate no claim beyond what is common to almost ALL religion. For example, one of my close friends and work colleagues has testified many times that Scientology has cured him of crippling anxiety. He experienced panic attacks so severe, he couldn't drive his car and was becoming more and more home-bound. After a week of 'counseling' within the Church of Scientology, he was cured. Scientology has regularly produced testimonies of this sort, ime, and I think we all pretty much agree to the general quackery surrounding this 'religion'.

Nice dodge.


That doesn't respond in any way. You used kneeling as an example of the submission in prayer; but kneeling is only submission because of society. Kneeling is societal not evolutionary.

You can't compare a King to God, because God can apparently read our souls; so we do not need to show our humility or loyalty because he should know it.(this is me btw

You inspire people to action by example and you can only live life abundantly by living it.[/QUOTE]

yeah that responds to the point in no way. Read the dialogue.

Once again you ignored the main point; we are his tools which he "straightens out" but we supposedly still have free will?

Also; this has been hammered to death but you obvs find "faith" easier; and this is meant to be fair?