He is a simply a dictator and tyrant to anybody with a good education. He is the head of the communist party which is atheistic. Anybody that follows the news knows that all religion is supressed in North Korea. You would have to cite some source to show that he claims to be a diety. It can't be so just because you have a feeling about it.

I am sure this is check mate. You say that he must provide some evidence to claim that he has to be some deity, not just a have a feeling about it!

How about you take those words you just spouted out and go show us some evidence of that deity of yours!

I say checkmate because this is the first time in history that a theist actually needs proof from the one making the claim. In other words when theists are asked to provide proof for their extraordinary claims they simply refuse and either try and turn it around or state some other illogical bs that the proof is on the other party asking for proof!

Gary Kasparov, the Christian Grand Champion of Chess, would be proud of you. Put down the vodka for little while and stop staring at your pictures of Stalin. You getting away from the main point. Do you think that Kim Jong is a diety or not?

(Btw, I am currently an anti-atheist, not necessarily a theist)

I suggest we contain Pokerlogist and Tsar of Russia in a thread and let them have a fight to the death. They deserve each other.

^ Louise do me a favour and shut up!

Logist are you a theist or not?

Make me!

Ducking me huh, can't say I blame you, the conversation is likely to go nowhere useful primarily because, despite being a intelligent guy who tries hard to sound reasonable and objective, you regularly betray your starting assumptions with little slips like those I've quoted above.

In a context where you should be talking about all possibilities, it's always God God God with you, as if there are no other possibilities. Sometimes you remind me of Ken Ham when he was asked what would change his mind and his answer, which was given whilst he was admitting that he simply starts with God and works from there, basically boiled down to 'nothing'.

Oh why don't we go back to the middle-ages then if we are going to talk history and/or not relevant to today's situation, i guess i don't need to get you the links what religion and theists did then hey?
Where was your god then hey?, or is this another one off the oldest and most used excuses: "god can't control everything and/or anybody, he can only teach or help or advice people they got their own responsibility" or in words similar like that ?.

And calling any person that is not a believer and/or religious a atheist is by most people that do, is another thing that wonders[maybe even irritates me a little] me, because me myself for instance don't care/interested enough about religion to be considered or called a atheist.

I know it is there, and i do wonder why people believe, and am totally lost on the reasons how they can. But not much more then that, but hey i don't loose any sleep over it.
And if people insist on giving me a label, i think that a very mild agnostic is if any term, more appropriate towards me.
Simply because i really don't care if anything like/or god exists, i simply are convinced that it does not, and that is it.
I do wonder/are curious how/why people that are of sound mind and for the rest normal, can believe in such for me nonsense as religion and god.
And despite of overwhelming evidence[in mine and many others opinion] and logic, common sense, scientific evidence, people are still believers in that myth called god, and it is for me so obvious/logical that god is made up by people.
But i guess it is the need to belong/believe in/to something of the human race, is a explanation i can live with, it is the same behavior as many sect and groups similar.

And i know i contradict myself at times or speak a bit in paradox here and there, but i guess that it fascinates me also at times when i read a post like this once and a while on this forum, but hey i like a discussion with no real definitive answer/proof on one side or the other, but i do think i am right.

And i do apologize for calling pokerlogist a idiot, that was uncalled for, but i do think that his post was bs, but i should have not called you a idiot, aldo the evidence/your posts is working against you, and for that i am sorry.

Great response

Apparently, in another contentious thread, the Tsar alias has self-destructed himself.

Thanks petjax.

Yea well that is what you get asking a question that has probably a million answers, and behave[write] very rude, insulting and is not very clear in his answers and questions against people that are IMO a lot smarter then him[or at least behave] and clearly not working at McDonald's so to say.

Beside some people trolling him a bit, i can't disagree with his decision. LOL

Religious freedom is supressed. The stories of the Kims are taught to the children from the youngest of ages. In schools. They have shrines to them in every home. They sing hymns to them in school every day. Their burial sites are pilgrimage sites. Kim Jong-Il's birth is taught to have been foretold by bird, changed the seasons, and created a new star. Kids believe Kim Il Sung never took a ****. This is all common knowledge, not disputed by defectors. And this is fanaticism that is synonymous with religion.

I could site many, many sources as I consider myself a bit of a serious amateur scholar on North Korea, but I really think the most effective resource would be "Nothing to Envy" by Barbara Demick which tells the story of several "regular" people of different classes that existed through the famines of the 90s. The story about the doctor is particularly touching because you come out of it feeling that she still kind of believes a lot of what she was taught about juche ideology and resents everything about her life since her defection. Here's an amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-O.../dp/0385523912 I got it on itunes. It's a great book.

A shorter reference point would be an interview that showed up on cnn recently: http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/201...speaks-out.cnn but seeing as that's just one person it's not nearly as powerful as the book.

I'm on the atheist side of agnostic myself. And I totally agree that freely educated people would realize the ridiculousness of fanaticism in the North Korean system. But imagine if you're taught that the sky is green your whole life and that grass is blue. Then you move at age 35 and find out the rest of the world has it the other way around. I can imagine that while one could rationalize their mind around the fact that others believe it to be so, it would be hard to undo so much daily, regimented education in one fell swoop.

OK. I just want to let you know that I have not self-destructed. I simply reflected my posts I'd written whilst taking a shower and felt that I posted a few posts in an inappropriate way towards theists. I want to point out that it is pointless arguing on here as people make up too much in their own mind based on my posts.

Nobody is perfect, least off all me! I do think that you in particular post a lot of bs/rants just to have an argument/debate.



Take care

I think people in here have already mentioned it but for the sake of it. The people you mention are power hungry dictators. They rule in the same way that religion rules.

Interesting stuff. Thanks. North Korea is one of the most horrible places on earth and it didn't have to be that way. I watched the video. Can't see Kim Jung portrayed as a diety. He is portrayed has an exceptional human to his people as are most dictators. He doesn't present himself as a diety. It is a cult of personality. In fact, as the video points out Kim Jong's father died and had public funeral. Mortality is not a feature of a god. North Korea is a forced secular atheistic state that brutally persecutes its citizens and takes away any individual rights.

Jesus, Osiris, Dyonisus etc. disagree.

ha. Kim wasn't resurrected as far as i know.

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Neither have the Egyptian pharaohs.

The claim that religion is the only possible motivation for suicide attacks seems obviously incorrect. People are dedicated to all sorts of ideas besides religion--eg nationalism, ideology, family and so on--any of which can motivate them, even if they are atheistic, to suicide attacks.

Here is Robert Pape, a professor of political scientist who has published on suicide terrorism in an interview:

I am a bit skeptical that he just removes all the clearly religiously affiliated groups (Tamil Tigers, Chechnyan rebels, Hamas, PLO) because they are seeking what he calls a "specific secular goal". The secularity of those goals is questionable as well when they are seeking to establish a state that will follow religious principles.
At best he can argue that they are not committing the suicide attacks explicitly in the name of religion. It is far from obvious that their religious beliefs (matyrdom, reward after death etc.) are not motivating factors that can be removed and have the same result (conditio sine qua non).

"Look, there are foreign troops on our land!" Abdul exclaimed, while raising his fist in the air.

"Meh, they're merely present. No need to be alarmed" said Louie the visiting tourist.

A collective "DA FUQ?" came out of the mouths of the 10 or so Arab bystanders as if scripted.

After a few seconds of contemplation, Abdul conceded "Yea, they've probably just heard of our world renown cuisine and came to get a taste." He continued, "so what are you doing here, is that a French accent I detect?"

"Yea, I'm just visiting the Holy sites and taking in the culture," replied Louis.

A loud "Oh ****" roared from Abdul as he strapped on what appeared to be a vest rigged with dynamite and C4. He then proceeded to dial a couple of numbers into the timer and race towards the troops as the other men chanted "la, la, la, la, la, la," in a trance like state.

I want to see RLK's response to this

You say you watched a video wherein a woman says the Kims are considered gods, then your next sentence is you can't see Kim Jung portrayed as a diety. What do you know about North Korea that a North Korean doesn't?