Atheism and religion in law - Page 5 - Religion, God, and Theology

that's not an implication

atheistic religions exist

that doesn't make atheism a religion

for an atheist organization to be church-like requires it to be about more than just atheism

I welcome you to give me example of another non-religious church-like organization that isn't atheistic that qualifies for the given exemption.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 08-30-2015 at 10:29 AM.

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08-30-2015 , 04:37 PM

#102

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I welcome you to give me example of another non-religious church-like organization that isn't atheistic that qualifies for the given exemption.

I don't have to

that's not how logic works

even if there aren't any, that has no relevance to what I said

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08-30-2015 , 05:24 PM

#103

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I don't have to

that's not how logic works

even if there aren't any, that has no relevance to what I said

Qualifying for a specifically religious exemption seems to require that one must first be a religion, at least as far as the law is concerned.

Give that there *IS* an atheist organization qualifying for a religious exemption, it seems quite clear that the logic works just fine.

You may or may not like that atheism is legally a religion, but that's a separate issue.

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08-30-2015 , 10:18 PM

#104

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

is theism legally a religion then?

and no, it doesn't bother me at all if atheism is legally a religion or a tomato is legally a vegetable or the moon is legally made of cheese

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08-30-2015 , 10:25 PM

#105

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

is theism legally a religion then?

If a theist group has received such an exemption, yes. I don't think one has, but I could be wrong.

If no theist groups have received such an exemption, the answer is probably no. It's either not a religion because no theist groups have ever applied (so that by default there has been no ruling to qualify it at such -- though it could potentially be declared one) or it's because such an application has gone through and it has been denied. But this is not definitive, as it could still be a religion and have the application denied.

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08-30-2015 , 11:40 PM

#106

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

you don't think any theist groups have tax exempt status?

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08-31-2015 , 01:12 AM

#107

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

you don't think any theist groups have tax exempt status?

Not labeled as theists, no.

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08-31-2015 , 01:21 AM

#108

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Not labeled as theists, no.

how about the catholic church?

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08-31-2015 , 05:54 AM

#109

dereds

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Would you consider an atheist who is not a member of any group a member of a religion?

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08-31-2015 , 09:55 AM

#110

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

So, if a theist group gets such an exemption.. you would of accept that all theists are now counted as part of that group for legal reasons?

I would be fairly annoyed by that if I were an irreligious theist, or I if I were a theist whose religion forbade me to worship other gods.

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08-31-2015 , 11:14 AM

#111

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

how about the catholic church?

I'm fairly certain the Catholic church is labeled as "Catholic" or "Christian."

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08-31-2015 , 11:18 AM

#112

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by dereds

Would you consider an atheist who is not a member of any group a member of a religion?

In the context of the parsonage exemption, no. It seems that to qualify for the exemption, the property must be owned or maintained by an organization. It's tax code, so I'm not going to pretend that I follow the intricacies of it.

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08-31-2015 , 11:20 AM

#113

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

So, if a theist group gets such an exemption.. you would of accept that all theists are now counted as part of that group for legal reasons?

For those labeling themselves as theists, it would seem the government would view them as such.

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I would be fairly annoyed by that if I were an irreligious theist, or I if I were a theist whose religion forbade me to worship other gods.

You would have to elaborate on why the government label entails something about your worship before this is going to make any sense to me.

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08-31-2015 , 01:20 PM

#114

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I'm fairly certain the Catholic church is labeled as "Catholic" or "Christian."

it's Catholic, Christian and theistic

my point is that calling theism a religion is like calling blue an animal

some animals are blue but blue is not an animal

most religions are theistic and some are atheistic

theism and atheism are not religions

the irs granting tax exemption status to a religious freedom group doesn't make atheism a religion even in a silly legal sense

you could argue that it makes that particular religious freedom group a religion but that still doesn't make atheism a legal religion any more than zen buddhism or taoism do

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08-31-2015 , 01:21 PM

#115

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

For those labeling themselves as theists

all literate Christians label themselves as theists

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08-31-2015 , 01:36 PM

#116

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

it's Catholic, Christian and theistic

But it's not a "theist" group and nobody is applying for the exemption as a "theist" but as a "Catholic."

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my point is that calling theism a religion is like calling blue an animal

some animals are blue but blue is not an animal

most religions are theistic and some are atheistic

theism and atheism are not religions

Tell that to the 7th circuit and the Supreme Court. I have pointed to explicit court documentation calling atheism a person's religion. Agree or disagree, that's what the case law tells us. I think the same types of labels can be applied elsewhere for similar outcomes.

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the irs granting tax exemption status to a religious freedom group doesn't make atheism a religion even in a silly legal sense

you could argue that it makes that particular religious freedom group a religion but that still doesn't make atheism a legal religion any more than zen buddhism or taoism do

Buddhism isn't atheism. It's Buddhism. Just like Catholicism isn't theism, it's Catholicism. But the atheist group is atheist. There seems to be no other useful religious label for that.

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08-31-2015 , 01:37 PM

#117

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

all literate Christians label themselves as theists

Do you think the Catholic church applies as a "theist organization" for various exemptions under the tax code?

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08-31-2015 , 02:03 PM

#118

Sun Tzu

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Do you think the Catholic church applies as a "theist organization" for various exemptions under the tax code?

who is applying for tax exemptions as "atheist"?

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08-31-2015 , 02:08 PM

#119

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I have pointed to explicit court documentation calling atheism a person's religion.

It makes sense to call it a "religious stance" or something like that, which is what the constitution protects.

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Buddhism isn't atheism. It's Buddhism. Just like Catholicism isn't theism, it's Catholicism. But the atheist group is atheist. There seems to be no other useful religious label for that.

Whatever the group is or does should be enough of a label. Atheism itself doesn't require or even lend itself to any kind of an organization since it's not even an ethos.

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08-31-2015 , 02:09 PM

#120

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

who is applying for tax exemptions as "atheist"?

The better question is "Who qualifies for religious tax exemptions as an atheist?"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3791314.html

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But government lawyers say that atheist leaders can be ministers, too, since atheism can function as a religion. So leaders of an atheist organization may qualify for the exemption.

This was posted earlier and referred to several times in this thread already.

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08-31-2015 , 02:10 PM

#121

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Whatever the group is or does should be enough of a label. Atheism itself doesn't require or even lend itself to any kind of an organization since it's not even an ethos.

At this current moment, we're discussing actual laws, and so actual laws make the decisions for what things are labeled what. You may disagree with the law, but that's pretty irrelevant for the current set of considerations.

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08-31-2015 , 02:18 PM

#122

Sun Tzu

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Originally Posted by Aaron W.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation was granted tax exempt status on the basis that it functions as a religious organization.

That doesn't mean that atheism is a religion. It means that organizations based on religion that function like a ministry are eligible for religious tax exemption status.

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08-31-2015 , 02:21 PM

#123

Sun Tzu

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If for some reason a government form for something had a section where you had to fill out what kind of shirt you were wearing and one of the boxes was "none" that wouldn't imply that none is a type of shirt.

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08-31-2015 , 03:15 PM

#124

uke_master

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Sun Tzu, this is a settled legal question. The Supreme court has repeatedly and consistently considered atheism a religion for establishment clause purposes. And as you point out, for tax purposes, we have also consistently ruled that certain athiest organizations can be considered to satisfy the conditions for religious tax exemptions. So while you might be correct that the latter doesn't imply the former, both the latter and the former are true. Which is a good thing, because these interpretations allow athiests - and athiest organizations - the same freedoms and privileges of religious people and religious organizations.

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08-31-2015 , 03:25 PM

#125

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

That doesn't mean that atheism is a religion.

For the purposes of that part of the tax code, it does. That's just the reality of the situation. The question of whether it *should* is completely separate.

What you're experiencing is precisely the conflict between the legal and social that I've brought up before. Indeed, the organization in the article are experiencing that conflict, too. The government has chosen to label them as a something, but they don't want to identify as that something.

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