I was lucky that I had a lot of really good teachers, especially in middle school and high school. I still keep in contact with several of them as a matter of fact.

I remember very well the first person who encouraged me to go after my dream of coaching football when it seemed impossible, even to me. My freshman homeroom teacher was amazing, always with a positive attitude. Fresh out of college a couple years before, she was still in her mid 20's, and she was the first person who believed that I could accomplish it. She gave me enough steam to keep pushing toward it, and here I am.

One of the coolest moments of my life just happened within the last few months. I was put on scholarship for all my hard work with my school's football team this past year, and she was the first person I told about it. I told her (truthfully) that it never would have happened without her belief in me, because no one else did at that time, not even my parents.

I had the door slammed in my face more times than I can count, not to mention all the yelling and cursing at me by more than a few pissed of homeowners to get off their property.

I never enjoyed the door to door work like a lot of Witnesses (claim they) do. It certainly helps you get over your fear of being different, and you don't worry as much about what people think, which can be useful to a point.

How did the monthly 'report card' work? Are they strict about it? Is online proselytizing allowed?

The publications from the Watchtower, at least not any that I remember reading, do not mention anything about the failed predictions about the end of the world. No mention is made of it by anyone old enough to have been there. It is eerily similar to the novel '1984' government going through old historical records, and constantly changing them to change the facts and hide the truth.

I remember one time at the door when I was 14 or 15, a man asked me, "Son, do you realize your organization predicted the end of the world in 1975?" I said I was not aware of that. After we left the door, the other JW who was with me told me that the man was wrong, and that no such prediction took place. In his defense, I really believe he believed what he was telling me. He was deceived by the Watchtower's propaganda, and people's memory seemed to be erased about what really happened.

In the Watchtower's version of its history, referred to as the 'Proclaimers' book, the organization admits that there were some who predicted the end of the world in 1914, 1918, 1925, or 1975, but says that this was not an official endorsement by the Watchtower, but instead a few overzealous people who read too much into something in the literature that wasn't there.

I remember hearing first hand about this only once, from a good friend of my grandparents, who lived just a couple streets over from their house. He and his wife were good, kind people, and I remember him telling the story of when he bought his house in the late sixties, just chuckling to himself when he signed up for a 30 year loan, believing that the end would come long before he had to pay it all off. He apparently never made the connection, and as far as I know he and his wife are still active members of the Watchtower.

It makes me sad to see so many good and decent people like this lied to every day.

There are certain hourly requirements for each level of commitment to the preaching work. For 'Publishers' it is a mere 10 hours a month, for 'Auxiliary Pioneers' I think it was 50 hours. For 'Full Time Pioneers' the requirement was 90 hours in a month. I could be off on the numbers, it seems like forever ago, but you get the basic idea.

If you sign up for one of the more rigorous ministry requirements, you are expected to meet those goals or you will be, for lack of a better word, demoted back to Publisher status.

I usually just lied on my report the last couple years I was in the organization. There would be months when I wouldn't go out at all, so I would turn in a time card that had a believable stat line, maybe 11 hours, 8 magazines placed, etc. They never questioned me about it. I just found it was easier than telling the truth and getting talked down to about it every time I didn't do the minimum.

There are various methods endorsed by the Watchtower, including telephone witnessing, and mail witnessing. As far as I know, I never heard anyone say that it was a good idea to post in online forums (ahem Alter2Ego) which means it was discouraged.

Is there any benefit to being a higher level? On a different note, what exactly is an elder (requirements, duties, etc)? Are these people paid?

I went on a couple JW forums before asking you about it, and the JWs on the forums were rather forward about cheating on their cards. So you certainly weren't alone in juicing the books.

Would you mind telling Alter2Ego that?

There are no paid positions in the congregation, until you get to the position of circuit overseer, which is still hardly any money. The CO is provided with a car, a place to live, food, etc. All their needs are taken care of, and they are provided with a meager stipend for any other expenses.

The elders are responsible for the administrative and spiritual leadership of the congregation. Certain people have different responsibilities, like the accounting, the direction of the Ministry School, a weekly portion of the meeting where members of the congregation are assigned parts of the weekly Bible reading to present with commentary while working on their presentation skills. Then there is the presiding overseer, the head of the congregation for all intents and purposes. I'm oversimplifying a little, but you get the basic idea.

There's no financial incentive to increasing your share in the ministry, it's a weird combination of pressure on the young people to do what is expected of you, and the other half who really enjoy what they do, just like other people who are devoted to their faith in other religions feel the same way.

I'm going to watch this but before I do can you tell me if it's your position that Ehrman claims that one person (presumably Irenaeus) decided for all the church that there are exactly 4 gospels and that he decided it because there are 4 winds?

I went to the link you provided and when I clicked the play button I got an error message.

I just clicked on it and it worked fine. I don't know what to tell you. You can always go to YouTube and search for 'Bart Ehrman'. He has several interesting lectures, and he deals in logic and reasoning when explaining his arguments as opposed to just assuming the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

Of course, you should always do your own research, and I try to get my information from multiple sources as often as I can, but it is very difficult to live as a full time student, do all the work I do with football (this is a year-round thing for me), work the occasional part time job on the side as well, and stay up to date on all the scholarly opinions on subjects that interest me.

None of the videos on that page work for me.

Anyway, I assume you're not going to answer the question?

Edit: Hmm, can't get any internet videos to work - will have to do some research on that. But I still want you to answer the question - I'm not going to do a lot of research on an assertion by you that I'm sure is totally false - you provide the support first.

Edit edit: OK, it works in IE (rats I hate IE), but for some reason Firefox won't play a utube right now. But I'm not going to listen till you answer the question.

Edit edit edit: Aha, it was Real Player, another program I detest.

I have offered you sources to go look at, whether or not your computer is capable of the Herculean task of streaming a YouTube video is not my problem.

Whether you are "sure" something is totally false is irrelevant to me. You are under the mistaken impression that the books in the Bible are the only ones ever written under the pretense of being inspired by God. It is also very important to realize that Christianity at that time was as splintered as it is now, possibly even more so with the influence of Gnosticism and Marcianism.

There were literally hundreds, possibly even thousands of ancient books written during the first few centuries after the supposed death of Christ, not to mention the different copies that were made of those originals. Unfortunately the clerics at that time did not have access to Xerox machines, so there were usually mistakes made.

It was because of the massive amount of dissent, changing of sacred texts, and writing of books under false names that an ancient Bishop tried to unite the faith under a group of accepted gospels. This man's name was Irenaeus of Lyons, and he wrote his arguments in a book called 'Against Heresies'. Below is the text of what he wrote:

"But it is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the church has been scattered throughout the world, and since the 'pillar and ground' of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life, it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing incorruption on every side, and vivifying human afresh. From this fact, it is evident that the Logos, the fashioner demiourgos of all, he that sits on the cherubim and holds all things together, when he was manifested to humanity, gave us the gospel under four forms but bound together by one spirit." Against Heresies 3.11.8

You can accept or reject this, to be honest I really don't care. This is not what this thread was supposed to be about anyway. However this is a very commonly accepted view among Bible Scholars today, and like it or not, it's not going away.

I don't spend half my life looking at youtube videos. As to Herculean, once I was aware of the problem, the solution took about 5 minutes.


I'm familiar with the Irenaeus quote. That doesn't prove what you asserted.

As to the "errors" in the New Testament the internet is flooded with criticisms of Ehrman. Here's one:

http://www.ccwtoday.org/article_view.asp?article_id=69

I've seen a quote from Ehrman where he admits the original texts of the NT were pretty much what we have today.

As to canonicity, if you want to debate that, let's go.

Edit: I feel I should comment on your statement that this isn't what the thread should be about. Fine. But you're the one making the wild and false allegations. You shouldn't then cry about eliciting a response from someone who recognizes your vacuity on this subject.

Sigh... Good one, the old 'Claim the other guy is a dork/nerd' defense. Guilty as charged.

I really had high hopes for this discussion until you directed me to that link.

Really? A fundamentalist Christian site has an article attacking an author who suggests the Bible is not written by God? I'm shocked.

I never implied that the texts were drastically changed from what they were 2,000 years ago. My whole point is that if God did in fact write the Bible, why would there be ANY mistakes in it?

As far as the canonicity subject, you are aware that the New Testament books were mostly selected by vote aren't you? There was no single book from on high transported down to Earth from the Lord. There were simply the least unbelievable books that were chosen from the large collection of otherwise ridiculous stories, which included things like Jesus fighting dragons, etc.

You have a right to believe what you want, but please stop trying to derail this thread. I created it out of deference to JokerThief so that I could answer questions about JWs without taking over his. If you want to debate this, create a thread or join one of the many others on this forum on the topic.

I provided what he claimed is a quote from Ehrman. Are you saying that quote is inaccurate?

Why did God ...X... ?
Is that supposed to be an argument?


You obviously have never studied how the canon was formed.

I'm not derailing. I'm responding to what I believe are easily disproved errors you made. Withdraw them, ignore them, debate them - but don't claim they're my topic. And no, I don't want to debate it. But if you want to I will engage.