It's already been said, but the song "Same love" by Macklemore has this pretty well covered:

So wait? Homosexuals commit suicide because Christians believe that marriage is between a man and a woman?

GTFO.

What about a country like the netherlands, where 77% of the population has a favorable view of homosexuals? They have had SSM for 10 years. Homosexuals there still have significantly higher suicide rates. Source

Furthermore, and very critical to this debate is that-- children born out of wedlock has risen dramatically in the Netherlands since SSM passed. Source

The same with Denmark.

I mean, are we even living in the same place here? The world of Will and Grace, Glee, Grey's anatomy, Brokeback mountain, Ellen Degeneres, etc etc etc.

The American media by-and-large celebrates homosexuality, as does Hollywood.

Seriously. Have you ever just considered that that lifestyle is simply *not good* for a person, and that is the reason why God commands you not to partake in it?

It seems that you are emotionally compromised right now, and I'm kindly asking you to drop out of the conversation, or I will. Thanks.

No one's going to miss you and your bigotry go.

This doesn't have to be an emotionally charged position.

It is reprehensible to deny people their rights
Doggg wants to deny people their rights
Therefore, Doggg is reprehensible.

Cold as ice.

For not being against same sex marriage you sure seem like you are against same sex marriage.

On a more serious note. This is what absolutely floors me about people who are anti gay marriage. They say things that will obviously offend a bunch of people, and then act victimized when they get a harsh response. It's like they have no idea (or don't care) that there are real people involved here. In fact, that might help them hold this view in the first place.

There are two unproven, just-so premises above.

The second one isn't unproven.

If I weren't as familiar with US politics as I am, I wouldn't even know those exist. Anti-gay sentiments are more or less prevalent in different countries (for example, in Portugal much more than in the Netherlands), but that people actively join in a group to pray away the gay - I'd say that doesn't happen. Whenever I make a claim about people's rationality, I'M usually wrong, though.

Ya, you don't see a lot of things.

You do realize that this isn't a valid syllogism?

of course

In the end, all that has been demonstrated is that the arguments are unsound, and without an appeal to emotion, there is nothing happening here that demands the emotional level of this debate. It's almost as if ... if you just convince the Christians that homosexual people should be allowed to marry, then homosexuals will live happily ever after, and Puke-master and others have even stated that this is their thought process.

You guys better stick to the judicial activism.

Furthermore, I grew up in an abusive home, as I have detailed before. I certainly know what it is like to be told that you are different in a bad way. I underwent ten years of abuse before my brother came home after running away and shot up our house when he came to shoot dead my stepfather.

I never claimed to be morally superior to anybody here. My past definitely flocked me up, and I have to deal with my ruined relationships and myriad of life-errors every day. Years of scum-low self-esteem, petty crime, panic attacks, alcoholism, children out of wedlock-- the whole nine.

But I know now that in my darkest moments, God preserved me. He had a plan for my life. He brought ME up from the gutter. Faith. Christ. All of that stuff we preach.

If there is hope for me, then there is hope for anybody.

But for gangsta to call me a bigot is BS. I do have a homosexual friend irl. And I have his back just the same as any other friend of mine. And, in fact, I've put my life on the line to stop a hate-crime against a homosexual man. The two men about to commit the hate crime were hardly christian. They were two godless scum.

I'm done with this thread. You all have a big anti-christian circle-jerk now.

cool story bro

Oh hey just wondering, did the guys tell you before or after your heroism that they were athiests... or did they run away shouting "we did this because we are Godless scum!"

Seriously, reading your preaching posts is like watching DPRKTV

Ugh, this thread is depressing.

There is something rather selfish about writing a gigantic post and proclaiming at the end that you are done with the thread.

I have a friend who's a christian, she's lovely though.

lol@ you falling for the 'I'm being bullied' line that Christianity is taking in the face of increasing criticism of it's beliefs and practices.

They probably thought that your friend was godless scum, and you were too for protecting him. I love religion.

Care to qualify that statement to rid it of it's broad-sweepingness? Or, of course, provide evidence that justifies to attribute that "line" to all of christianity.

What is all this nonsense about Christian marriage, and homosexuals wanting to get married in church? Doggg's entire response is a red herring (one that appears to be commonly held amongst certain Christians).

The secular state cannot, and has no interest in, redefining the Christian idea of marriage. In contrast, religious groups campaign vigorously against the passing of any such secular legislation. Many Christian voter's base their decision about secular marriage using their religious views. This is their right, but the deck has been stacked against secular SSM in this overwhelmingly Christian population. It just makes victory that much sweeter when we find out that young voters, including Christians, are opening their hearts and minds to combat discrimination against LGBTQ, and removing discriminatory access to secular marriage.

Christian Privilege once again rears its ugly head ("It's All About Us") in the form of a small but vocal subset of Christianity. And why do I keep underlining that word (secular)?

Perhaps we should agree a definition of 'Christianity' given that in our last conversation about the church I failed to come out of it with a clear understanding of the difference between the church, the people that run the church and followers of a church.

I have formed an impression of a backlash to the decline in religiosity which has taken the form of a persecution complex. I've formed this impression through personal observation, news items and the existence of organizations like:

barnabasfund.org

http://www.persecution.org/

http://www.opendoorsusa.org/persecution/

and articles like the following:

persecuted-chronicles-of-the-global-assault-on-christians

Vatican officials decry persecution of Christians around the world

Modern Day Christian Persecution

I've seen new laws introduced to protect religions from criticism and overall it has started to feel, to me, that some religions are playing the 'victim card' by claiming any perceived attack or criticism as 'persecution'. It's a tactic I regularly see in American mainstream media outlets like Fox News. If you're not for what I believe then you're attacking me, how dare you!

I could be wrong, it's just my impression as I said. I might have slipped back into my old style of being undeservedly certain in my claims when I made my post.

In case anyone missed it, one of the articles Doggggg linked to is from NARTH.com -- the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.

This is almost as bad as when Splendour linked to an article on NAMBLA.com when trying to support her own bigoted position on homosexuality.

It's almost worse to have to read/listen to the attempted rationalization of bigotry, than the actual bigotry itself.

This would be the same guy who whines: "How am I supposed to feed my family if slavery is abolished? That's not fair! etc."

but I have a black friend though...

.

Ok. First, you do realize that in most of these pieces, the authors talk about actual persecution in a few specific countries, right? Before you label an article that decrys christian persecution in Iraq as being evidence of a persecution complex, you need to show that this persecution does not, indeed, happen.

So, IF that persecution is happening, it's pretty inappropriate (and somewhat cynic, tbh) to refer to it as "falling for the 'I'm being bullied' line". Now, while I would certainly defend that Islam is not a violent religion per se, I am not ******ed enough to claim that there aren't certain countries that sport a rather extreme form or islam which does target christian (among other) groups in a violent manner.

For one, citing Fox in RGT is like scoring Godwin points in Politics. Doing that should alert you that your argument needs polishing. But more to the point, you do realize that you're switching areas of reference here, don't you? That a talking head at Fox railes against the War on Christmas doesn't mean that Christian parishes in Sudan aren't under real pressure.

Edit to add: Just to make this clear: I'm not saying the sources you cite aren't biased and that their claims should be taken at face value. Probably not. That doesn't mean, though, that the base of their exaggerations isn't real. If it is, it is careless at the very least to lump it together with traditionalists rambling about a war on christian values because they're not allowed to hate the gheyz quite as openly anymore.

I think that western Christians are increasingly using it as a defence. That there is 'genuine' persecution occurring in a few countries doesn't mean that any reference to persecution refers to those instances or should be judged by the form that persecution takes. It's also being used as a defence in situations where what's actually happening is simple criticism. You can't deny that the 'underdog' tactic can be an effective rallying cry, uniting followers against a common enemy can significantly strengthen an organization.

I can't prove any of this of course, it's simply my impression.

Generally it may be true what you say about Fox and RGT but in this case it's a useful reference because they represent, IMO, that growing use of the tactic and are a very popular media outlet in a country where I'm increasingly seeing the 'stop bullying me' tactic used by Christians. It's not unreasonable to postulate a causal link and you can't so casually dismiss any mention of Fox. An influential right wing news outlet and an ironic 'law' are not the same thing.