All about Islam: You ask, I answer..well I try - Page 5 - Religion, God, and Theology

damaci · 02-09-2010, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

Damn, I edited in an extra bit: was the targeting of the West a new tactic even among extremists?

The idea of a small group of extremists declaring "Jihad" against the "West" (whatever that means) is unprecedented in Islamic history, if that is what you are asking.

All-In Flynn · 02-09-2010, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damaci

The idea of a small group of extremists declaring "Jihad" against the "West" (whatever that means) is unprecedented in Islamic history, if that is what you are asking.

Cheers.

Huehuecoyotl · 02-09-2010, 08:28 PM

What political/theological issues are there in the Muslim world right now and what are some possible outcomes of these issues?

damaci · 02-09-2010, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

What political/theological issues are there in the Muslim world right now and what are some possible outcomes of these issues?

Too broad a question to give any meaningful answer...Refine please.

Max Raker · 02-09-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damaci

Actually the authorship of the Qur'an is one of the least controversial subjects in the scholarly literature on Islam. With the exception of a small minority represented by John Wansbrough and his students (Patricia Crone, Michael Cook etc.), pretty much every respectable scholar in the field accepts the traditional Muslim view that the Qur'an was "revealed" in piece-meal fashion to Muhammad between 610 and 632 (of course since most of the scholars are not Muslims, they would actually believe that Muhammad was uttering these verses). Muslims believe that revelations began in 610 when Muhammad was meditating alone in a cave on top of a mountain near Mecca, named Hira. According to the classical view Muhammad did not know how to read or write so he declared the "revelations" he received for 23 years up until his death to his followers. And some of these followers would write down or memorize the verses that have been revealed. After the death of Muhammad, during the reign of the first Caliph Abu Bakr (who was Muhammad's best friend and the first male Muslim who accepted the revelations as genuine), the revelations were collected. During the reign of the third caliph Uthman (one of the companions of Muhammad), the collected revelations were produced in the book form. These earliest Qur'ans are pretty much the same Qur'an that the Muslims read today.
The society in which Muhammad lived was predominantly pagan (they believed in multiple deities representing the forces of nature) and their belief system has some similarities to other pagan religious systems such as the ancient Greeks'. There were also a small minority of Jews and Christians living in Arabia at the time, but the dominant tribes (including that of Muhammad's, Quraysh) were almost always pagans.

Thanks. Do you have any theories on why Islam chose to piggy back onto a minority religion? Also, is it reasonable to think that Muhammed could have known so much about the old and new testament?

damaci · 02-09-2010, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Thanks. Do you have any theories on why Islam chose to piggy back onto a minority religion? Also, is it reasonable to think that Muhammed could have known so much about the old and new testament?

As far as I know there is no satisfactory answer in the scholarly literature explaining the extent of Muhammad's knowledge about the old and new testaments. Muhammad was not a learned man or scholar, he was a merchant. It is reasonable to assume that he learned at least somethings about Christianity and Judaism during his travels for trade to Palestine and Syria which were then part of the Eastern Roman Empire. But, yet again, Quran's teachings about the old testament and the new testament are not simple reproductions of Christian and Jewish beliefs, and even the stories of these older books (the story of Joseph, Moses, Abraham, Jesus Christ etc.) repeated in the Qur'an have subtle, yet crucial, differences from the earlier versions.

damaci · 02-09-2010, 08:53 PM

OK, enough for tonight. Post your questions, and I will return to this thread tomorrow.
Cheers

Hardball47 · 02-10-2010, 03:17 AM

I would like to interject and point out that if you read the Qur'an's translation, there are things in there that nobody could have possibly known 1400 years ago.

Thanks for the thread, OP. Like AIF said, it's a welcome change of pace.

rizeagainst · 02-10-2010, 03:30 AM

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Originally Posted by W0X0F

Is it true that the Quran calls for death to non-Muslims?

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Originally Posted by damaci

Not true.

Quote:

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.

Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.

Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!

Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

So, where in the Quran, does it say these passages aren't to be taken as universal commandments? If anything the Quran speaks of them AS universal commandments.

Hardball47 · 02-10-2010, 04:13 AM

rize, did you ignore that PM I sent you weeks ago?

vixticator · 02-10-2010, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardball47

I would like to interject and point out that if you read the Qur'an's translation, there are things in there that nobody could have possibly known 1400 years ago.

oh.

such as?

Hardball47 · 02-10-2010, 06:16 AM

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Originally Posted by vixticator

oh.

such as?

How a baby is formed in the womb, or that life is consisted mostly of water.

vixticator · 02-10-2010, 06:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Hardball47

How a baby is formed in the womb, or that life is consisted mostly of water.

Link to specific passages

VPIP100 · 02-10-2010, 07:40 AM

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Originally Posted by damaci

Religions provide the poetry of everyday life for the common men; and this poetry and the meaning associated with it cannot be replaced by science or rationality.
Cheers

I think most scientists would disagree with this.

I really like your posts, thanks for doing this.

MickTheCad · 02-10-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardball47

How a baby is formed in the womb, or that life is consisted mostly of water.

I was pretty sure that it's fairly well accepted even by Islamic experts that they borrowed this from Galen who wrote it earlier than the Quran. Happy to be proved wrong though.