Correct.

But big downswings are were the problems normally start. Does the stakee have to play smaller games to grind back the makeup? If there's a huge fight, who quit first? What happens if the stakee works part time (doesn't play the agreed volume) while he's in makeup?

@jh1711 I see I see. thanks for the help. I think the relationship between the staker and the stakee is really good as they have been lifetime friends. There isn't any agreement upon any volume or anything. just play when the stakee wants to play and he will be staked money. But, i definitely see why makeup can start to build up because it only takes into account for future profits.

Hey everyone,

I had some questions regarding a poker-staking situation that I had with a person I know. I wanted to get some unbiased responses to help resolve this situation. We are debating over how much money should be returned to me in the aftermath of Black Friday.

Some background info:

1) I was staking this person prior to black Friday.
2) I ended the stake after black Friday.
3) We squared up after black Friday since I owed him cash from some live staking that he lost in. So I owed him the money he lost.
4) I lent him about $3400 online in total.
5) After funds were returned, he received more than $3400 (I think this implies that he won some money off the stake online which is fine).
6) Our staking sheets weren't fully up to date but my claim is that the $3400 is mine since his account had more money in it than $3400, he didn't redeposit money and never busted his account, and I was his only backer.

At some point during conversations I mentioned to him that my staking sheet said that he owes me $1900. I have since retracted that statement since my sheets weren't up to date. My transfer records on full tilt showed that I transferred him $3400 and so since he never redeposited money, $3400 of the funds returned to him are mine since we were square after Black Friday. What else might I be missing?



Questions:
1) Is $3400 a reasonable amount? He insists on paying me $1900 but that was my initial guess, and it was a mistake and I have since sent him docs supporting my $3400 estimate.
2) Also, he insists on paying post-tax amount since he paid taxes on it. But I feel like this is also kind of unfair since I am receiving less money than I am owed and he shouldn't have paid taxes on this money since they weren't gains of his.

What should we do?

-Jeff

I mean according to what you say you are correct in both your statements, he should not have paid taxes on the money if it was owed to you and if 3400 is the correct amount then thats what it should be but thats just your side. I would be interested to hear his.

dont hurt the horse PETA will be all over you. you could sell the horse i was at a track once and some guy told me the french love horse steaks. lol

seriously. keep your sheets up to date. if your from the US you'd realize the irs wouldnt buy the argument of "but i wasnt gambling with my money". the amount he'd owe you depends on the terms you agreed to stake him with.

have you been doing this long? imo- you need some sort of weight to throw around if you plan on staking relative strangers and expecting to be able to recover your money owed. an honer system of repayment might work between very close friends/family but even then fails,

sounds like he is trying to shaft you as he doesnt seem to have any worry over the conseguences of even attempting it.

Well if you lend him $3400 without interest obviously you are entitled the full amount.

Did you make it clear to the horse that this is lending not staking?

It was staking. How does this change things?? I am curious.

if it was a loan he owes you all of what he borrowed regardless of what he does w the money.

if you staked him 3400$ the amount he owes you is dependant on the terms you both agreed on when you staked him that money. ie- % of winnings you take back may not be the same percentage of what others staking may get. if you had a sucker on the line and were greedy in theory you could get them to agree to you receiving 95% of the winnnings or something ridiculous like that.

so you staked him 3400$. when he withdrew it sounds like he pulled more than 3400$ out so he must have had profits. how much of that you are owed depends on the deal you made with him. nobody can really chime in to say what is fair or how much it should be unless the terms of your deal are stated here.

of course we can assume its something along the lines of being an unofficial standard arrangement when staking but really- what is standard.
that be like going to a loan shark and saying "wait you want 40% the other 3 guys only wanted 30%" he'd say "tough sh*t im me and those are my rates take it or leave it". im sure when it comes to big name pros getting stake offers there is probably a little more of a baseline offer but then again its going to be competitive if multiple stable owners trying to stake the same player for a big event or tourney.

Ah, slight misunderstanding. I actually stated the terms of our deal a few posts above (50/50 with makeup) and we actually squared up after Black Friday (he played live cash, lost, and I paid him the amount that he was owed (some few thousand dollars since he lost at live cash).

So when money was returned to his FTP account, we were square but he still had the original money that I transferred him on the site ($3400). My argument is that the entirety of that $3400 is mine. His argument is that we agreed on $1900 (I was mistaken having now looked at my records. My records were old and dated and we both agreed on this and I needed to look at my FTP transfer history to figure this out).

He also wants to pay me post tax money since he paid taxes on the entirety of his black friday refund which I think is unfair.

Lesson learned: staking is a risky business.

Given this info (which I acknowledge might be biased but I am trying to just present facts), what should we do?
-Jeff

Same.

The thing is is that I don't know how to verify that he paid taxes on the $3400. I also don't know why he paid taxes on the money... Like... he must have thought that he won all that money online even though I lent him money? Either way it's his mistake and I shouldn't be the one penalized for this. I am the one who should be paying taxes on that money on MY tax bracket.

Staking is not worth the trouble at all.

So I'm new to the forums, and since I play on WSOP (trying to move to Bovada, but don't have the cash to spare on the software) I don't have a bunch (any) of my stats. However, as a Las Vegas local I also enjoy playing 1/2NL games at live cash games, and the occasional tournament. I've been reading and learning as much from the forums as possible and have definitely improved my game.

Is it possible for someone in my position to find a backer that will start small with me and work with me as I build my skill and bankroll? I'd like to work with one person from the get go and go from there in small online and cash games, maybe the occasional tournament. There's a lot of local tournaments around me with a $30 buy-in that pays $320 to first. I've only played once but I took first, so I'd like to think I'm not totally terrible.

bump

Will contracts stand up in court if horse ran away with dime?

If they stole your money? Probably. If they left without finishing the deal/quitting makeup/etc, probably not.

Any advice/experience on handling added seats (from prizepool) on a horse's win on a standard 50/50 makeup stake?

E.g. Horse binks a $3.5K WPT and gets the $15K WPT Championship seat. But you don't necessarily want to stake that high of a buy-in tourney (let's assume you're a nit and they were in big makeup).

Have horse sell some of it off stake.

Hello 2+2.

My question is if this is a normal clause in a poker staking contract:

"Player agree that they will provide *** with Login and passwords at all staked sites if asked."

Where *** is the name of the backer.

It has been heard of as a clause. I think it goes over the line. I wouldn't sign a deal that says that unless they were offering me something extra special.

Hi guys, bit of a long post but worth the read as its interesting , i dont know enough about the legalities of the matter as im a beginner, hope you guys can help me .tyty

Just asking for some info / thoughts on this matter as a buddy of mine is having a pretty hard time because of it , any help apreciated.

Im going to refer to my freind as Horse, for ease.

So, Horse has a backer, after making them a fair bit of money falls on a ruff run, horse sorts a deal with his backer whereby he gets paid a % of his winnings whilst he's in mu, in return horse moves down a fair bit lower than he usually plays, all seems fair there to me.

Horse then wins some $$ over 2-3 months so he's due a pay day ect, he asks for it as needs $ to pay his bills after not being paid for a while, backers dont feel they should honour the agreement, and claim he breached contract ect co-icidently just after horse asking for the agreed $...seems to me backers have planned to freeroll horse all along to get him near to being square, then probs boot him, seems pretty low trick, but hey ho, it happens....anyway

Backers are trying to take $ back from horses account to obv gain levarage in dispute / not pay horse, so horse tells them no funds are to be moved, untill dispute is settled, funds are safe , horse isnt obv going to screw backerss.

This is where the real problem starts.....

So horse worried he's gonna get screwed for the money he's owed, phone's the operator's customer service dept / security and tells them he's worried an unaurthorized attempt is going to be made to access funds in his account, changes passwords / puts safe word on account ect, security assures horse that no one can move funds and that persons trying to acess funds / take funds from a players account without permission is iilegal.

Horse relays same info to backer, and ask to negotiate payment of what he's owed.

Backer then tells his rb affiliate that horse has ok'd a transfere for the balance of the account, the affilaite submits the request, the operator pays it.

Horse logs in , funds are gone, phones Operator asking where funds are (calls are recorded at this point) Operator saying horse has lost the funds that night, gives times , dates, ip adresses, quotes h/h's , yet horse hasnt been online that evening ....horse asks to speak to manager, is told same thing, horse is sayingif someone's played poker and lost the funds, the accounts been hacked , its fraud , please do something / freeze the funds if theyve been lost to someone ect.... operator refuses to act / blaming horse for losing the money....horse ends up speaking to 4 different employees all reading the same script.

Anyway a few days later, horse gets an email off backer telling him he took funds, and horse ends up having to agree to backers terms and walk away from the stake without monies owed to him, or risk asking for them and going to the boards are being forced to pay mu if doesnt go in horses favour, i think it probs would of pretty easy, but horse is just cant take much more of the bs , and agreed, rather than carry on in turmoil.

Operator says horse had agreement with affilaite / gave permission to access his funds, and that the fabrication over where funds had gone to was down to poor operator training, but makes affiliate reverse the funds taken from horse and puts monies in horses account, and offers horse $300 to go away.....horse isnt happy operator wont be honest with him, and is told to contact ibas.

Backer is saying now that due to horse getting funds returned from Operator the staking situation has reopened.

Thats where its at currently.

*Also just like to say horse hasnt asked me to do this, i just feel he's getting shafted pretty hard by a few people so im gonna ask for advice to see what people think

But my take on it is that the Operator has a duty of care to horse, as he has a contract with the operator when he signs up to the site, the operator has put horse in a position of risk by allowing the unathorized transfere / refusing to investigate, and the operator acted dishonestly. (dishonest by the standards of normal decent honest people) nd also imagine against procedure / his license.

Horse has done everything in his power to make operator aware , and the balance was still taken, the operator making up a story and blaming horse, is covering over what really happend, could be construed as fraud in many people's eyes.


Horses move.....

Thanks people

Michael.

*probs should of mentioned, the backers obv someone you dont wanna be playing for etod, horse has had to learn a lesson the hard way, such is life i guess 99% of backers will be spot on.

Like affiliate / the backer and the operator are all obv in contact, and have association, basically it looks like they have turned a blind eye / disregarded horses fears on safety of funds and allowed the transfere, then just lied to cover over what theyve done , so bacially backer wouldnt have to pay horse.

The reason i posted was also to get views on what horse should do in terms of ibas ect, as its not just about whats happened to him, there's wider implications for other playing poker with the operator, also like horse cant really deposit funds on there again as what to stop funds going missing again, and the operator making up another story, and blaming the player formissing funds?

like if they letting unathorized transfere requests go through, then blaming players for losing funds, how many other times has this happened? how many peeps have just given up on there allegations ect? something doesnt feel right here, or indeed safe.

If what you posted is true, Horse should post and report the backers scam so that nobody else gets their money stolen. He will have more leverage with the backing of the community than staying silent and getting his money stolen.

Also, please tell us what site this was on as they are clearly rogue and need to be avoided.

Of course, there is always two sides to these stories.

Thanks , ill past that on to him.

One last thing what would advise to do protect any other players with regards the site, apart from posting here ? like lodge complaint with IBAS or is it a police matter?

thanks again.

if true as told, it is disgusting behavior by both backer & site

this info needs to be outed immediately (backer & site) to serve as a warning and to hear both sides

hi.

What would be a fair Deal for single time live cashgame staking between friends/ well know people ? ( In a scenario where the backee is also present druing the time of play and trusts his stakee anyway, just for your information)
I hosted games once and to get my game going, i staked several friends whom i considered to be +ev in this game with one or two stacks, winnings 50/50 after i got my money back. Considering i got the game running and made rake , i always thought its a good deal. Now i got asked to show at game of a friend, but im not regulary playing anymore and dont have a sufficient roll, so i offered him this one time deal, one or two stacks, all winnings at the end of the session 50/50, or 55/45 , to surely make it +ev for him.( standard live game, defintley beatable)
I was more or less told to be delusional, we can make buyin 50/50 and same goes for the winnings. So im really not sure anymore about what would be a good deal for such occasions, i also only found information about longtime staking.
Thanks for any reply in advance.

Hey guys I am new here and interested in getting staked. I am a pro online for just 1 year now so I don't have many friends in the poker community/don't have anyone to vouch for me. Does anyone know how I can go about looking for a backer? I am a profitable player. Willing to give all my details if necessary...