It definitely does make sense It's a perspective I have never taken into account. I'll try to work on it the way you suggested. Thanks a lot for such a complex response

Hello Jared. I appreciate the time you are taking in doing this. It must take a lot of thinking time on you part to answer all these complex questions. I hope you have time to look at this one:
I play only sh limit holdem, online only, 3-6 players. - I dont have the patience or the stomach for NL cash games or full ring. My problem is that I cannot stay motivated/interested for long at the stakes I should be playing and move up constantly. A typical session might begin with me playing 2/4 and feel ok for a while but as I start to win I start to look for fish on the 5-10 etc and so on. I suppose I have spoilt myself a few times by starting at 2-4 and ending up winning say 5-20k at 50-100/100-200. These nights are very unusual but have happened.
I consider myself to be very intuative when it comes to reads and when I am in the zone I feel that, at times, I can achieve a very high percentage of correct reads. When Im in this zone I find it virtually inpossible not to move up and start trying the bigger games. I know I am under-rolled for these games but from looking at poker tracker I know I am a winner at all stakes except 50-100 and 100-200. This might sound like a gamblers cliche but having looked through the hands played at these 2 levels I maintain I was generally unlucky!
I only play on tables where there is at least one fish and mostly avoid collisions with perfect stat regs.
Often I sit down with a decent amount of dollars content to grind out 4 3-6$ tables for long periods of time resisting the urge to look at 10-20 but at some stage I become bored and either the concentration drops off and I start playing badly or I crave the move up.
As you would expect my roll fluctuates wildly. This has made me think lately that perhaps poker is'nt for me as I see the ability to grind out the lower stakes as a very important aspect of the game. On the other hand If I gave it up then I would feel it a shame that all the time learning/reading /analysing etc would go to waste. I enjoy the game to a great extent too. Albeit a massive problem in my game, apart from minor adjustments, I see it as the only problem standing between me and a very good career.
Its ridiculous really I see myself as a good player with potential to do very well but also as a mug with low self control. I would be interested to hear from any other players who have been through the 'low level grinding phase' and how they did it. Thanks

Jared,

Awesome thread, easily one of the most beneficial to me personally in quite a while.

Recently listened to the interview on the pokercast with Leatherass and yourself where Dusty mentioned a pre-game routine that came about through working with you. I wonder if you could elaborate on a pre game routine in general and how to develop one that works more specifically on an individual level of possible.

Many thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Jared, its been very much appreciated ..

Its been very helpfull indeed and will take what you said on board in future sessions ..

A friend of mine views himself as "un-helpable" when it comes to his brm issues online. He is very well off live and plays mid-stake cash games (10-20 200bb mostly). He used to be one of the better low-mid limit, limit-hold-em cash players and grinded 2k into over 200k+ in winnings in about a year. When he had about 150k+ in his account he got drunk one night and overplayed his bankroll (200-400nl) he lost nearly all of his bankroll and since then (been over 1 year now) has never been able to use bankroll management online. Live he is fine, however he has really bad gambling habits when running bad (if he loses like 5 buy ins live he will go play 1,000$+ hands of BJ and play 200$ spins on slots for hours on end).

He dosn't consider his brm issues tilt, even tho every time he has 5k+ online he states he will use BRM, he does so for maybe a few hours (usually using a super agressive 20buy-in limit), then he'll lose a huge pot and put 50%+ of his roll at risk. His tilt is preventing him from being one of the greatest NLHE and LHE players alive, anyway i can get him to want to be helped? Do you think you can help him? (he is a perfect candidate for one of your full sessions in-my-opinion).

Interesting post. I think there may be some alternative here that can perhaps put into perspective the issue/opportunity that's here.

I consider myself to be pretty intuitive as well. You sound like a pretty level headed person, who could benefit from understanding the reason for your lack of self control. Self control is something that has several parts to it, the one that is standing out in my mind, is that i wonder if poker is something that you learned quickly, and if you're generally above the curve when it comes to intelligence. Someone who, like many other poker players, school came very easy to but wasn't pushed to do more, or learn the discipline necessary to turn natural intelligence into Mastery or Excellence. Pretty common around here, and something I've worked with half my clients on. If that's true, then the low level grinding is really tough for you because there isn't much to learn. There's no brain food to feed your interest to continue with something so repetitive. Except the opportunity to learn discipline. If I'm on track here, feel free to post again with more specifics about the difficulty with discipline/self control and I'll give you some more things to consider.

The other thing that came to mind from your post, is whether you've considered getting staked. If you have the skill to be successful at high stakes, finding a staking (maybe coaching too) agreement with someone could be the way to go.


To your first point, it actually doesn't take me any longer than typing the answer. I've been working on my program for the past 8 years, I've competed at a high level in golf, and now being involved with poker for almost two years the answers generally come pretty easily now.

Thanks for the good words, glad to know the threads been of good use for you!

The pre-game routine is basically designed to get you consistently get you ready to play, both mentally and from a poker strategy/skill side. The key word is consistently, since the nature of the game has so much variance you cannot completely predict what will happen from day-day, session-session, so you need to be vigilant in your preparation to minimize the issues that tend to happen for you and/or to prepare to play in the zone or A game quality mindset. The three main components are:

1) Goals
2) Focus
3) Skill

In looking at goals, its important to consider process oriented goals in addition to result goals like, money, time, # of hands. People often have a tough time setting quality process goals. Process goals could be that your going to work hard to remain focused or play at a high level during the time that you've set. Or if you have trouble with Tilt, or overthinking for example, you would have a strategy worked out to handle these spots and the goal would be to effectively put the strategy into play and take active steps to minimize Tilt.

It's important to write these goals out and review them before you play. While these goals may be obvious, by definition a goal is something that you don't currently have, its something that you want. And if it's something that you are working on, then it isn't automatic, and it's important to remind yourself of your intent for the session.

Focus is something that is often overlooked as it's not just a question of having it, its a question of how much. To play high quality poker and minimize issues (consistently), you need to have the right amount of focus/energy. The mind needs a high enough level of focus to attend to the details of the game so you can make the best decision. Dusty uses some breathing exercises, other players take notes around their goals, as a means of narrowing focus - excluding everything that doesn't matter for the duration of your play.

From a skill side, I recommend organizing a short hand list of the areas in your game that you're working on. These are the parts of your game that could be classified in the Conscious Competency phase, where you know them pretty well, but in tight spots tend to forget. You want make sure these show up in those spots bc theirs a huge training effect, not to mention the necessity for it to help you win the hand. There isn't a hard rule on how many you have, what's important is that there aren't too many where you forget when the time comes. It's better to focus on the most important areas of your game and learn them well, rather than spread yourself too thin bc it'll take longer to learn fewer.

Let me know if that helps.

Your welcome. Great to know. Keep me posted on your progress, I always like to know how people are doing, and it's great feedback for me in getting better at what I do.

It's easy to think that you are beyond help when the problem consumes you and makes it appear as though there aren't answers available. If he's at least open to some new ideas and willing to do some work, I'm optimistic that changes can be made. Whether that means the issue is completely gone, or brought to a manageable place is hard to know at this point. I have some ideas formulated in my head about what lead to the initial drunken spew and what's going on now. Though I'll find out much more from the new client questionnaire (which, if you PM with an email I can send), and in our first session if he decides to do some work. If he has some questions for me, I'm happy to talk with him for a few minutes over cell or skype.

Thanks for the referral!

IANJ, obviously, but to me it seems from the way you're written this post that you've taken the idea that you "should" be grinding on authority rather than for good reasons of your own. I think you should think more deeply about your overall strategy for your poker life and where grinding fits into it. You may overcome this problem by becoming more clear about what you're trying to accomplish by grinding 3-6, or you may discover that in fact heavily grinding low limits isn't an appropriate part of your overall strategy. You shouldn't assume that it is just because it works that way for a lot of other people. It may be that doing a lot of shot-taking works better for you, and that by recognizing this you can control it better and stop the shot with success at 10-20 or 15-30 rather than moving up until you hit the limit of your capability.

Basically, develop some sort of method to your stake selection, based on what your goals are.

First up, let me thank you for taking the time to answer all of these questions, it is greatly appreciated.

My own problem is that I feel too much anxiety when playing poker (and probably in life in general) - I currently play mico-stakes HU-NLHE-SNG's. As soon as I start playing my heart starts to pound, I feel nervous and it seems almost as if I'm tilting regardless of whether I win or lose (although I do of course feel a bit worse when I lose). I doubt whether you would be able to 'fix' this problem in a single post, so I was wondering if there are any books that you could recommend about controlling your emotions and/or dealing with anxiety. They don't have to be about poker specifically. My goal at this point is simply to be able to control my emotions/anxiety and be able to play poker calmly...

YW.

I've been out of the counseling psychology world for around 4 years, back then I knew a lot of the good resources available. This is a book I remembered thinking was pretty good.

Regarding the poker specifics, do you know the reason why you feel anxiety when you play? Having some anxiety when you're performing is normal and actually desirable, it's fuel for your mind to focus and perform. The problem occurs when there's excessive emotion and because of that it limits your ability to think clearly and make solid decisions. So the key is to figure out the cause of the excess (above the desirable amount), and work to reduce/eliminate it.

Anxiety at basic level is just a signal to point out that there is uncertainty or something unknown. An unknown can refer to something specific to poker or something specific to you personally. For many people, the presence of these unknowns is very threatening because of expectations that are held that they "should" know. Then when mistakes are made, or losses occur, or issues personally occur, it brings to light that there is something unknown, which is causes more anxiety because they we're supposed to know, and now even more anxiety because their unsure how to change it. The cycle just goes round and round.

Is this how it goes for you? If so, post a bit more about your anxiety and I can layout a strategy to get you started.

hi Jared


i posted a thread under beats and brags titled my first post and maybe i should give up poker....i dont know how to do links sorry

i dont know why but i just self destruct like no one i know

i would be winning for a month like nearly everyday than booom i just loose the plot and like as if i dont care i just tilt till its all gone

my question to you is.... are some people just not tilt fixable

another example is i took on sports betting won for 8 months every month a winner than BOOOMMM again Blow my whole roll in a matter of days

same with other gambling codes i have won for very long periods and same as above just tilt it off maniac style

i have gambled with other peoples money who wanted to be part in this gambling ventures with me and funny enough i dont loose there money but my own i just blow it like i dont care at all just sick i mean i am holding there money and mine together and when this tilt starts with me i leave there money aside knowing that it's not mine ...and knowing very soon all mine will be gone so better not include there's .... but still keep tilting

i mean under tilt sometimes off course you get even but 8 out of 10 times you dont

anyway i know other readers are going to jump all over me calling me this and that but i dont care what all think what i care is what Jared thinks

I read through your other post (btw, to link you can just cut and paste the url).

To answer your question, the only people who can't fix their tilt are the ones who don't want to, don't believe their efforts will do anything, or are unwilling to put the work into fixing it. If you are willing to do what you can to work on it, answers are available and it can be fixed. How to do that is of course the next important question.

The key element to fixing Tilt is to understand the cause. From there a strategy can be developed to both manage the issue in the moments where it shows up, and in the long-term change the underlying cause so the impulse doesn't show up.

Regarding the cause, from the description where you put away your friends money to then Tilt away your own, that suggest to me that you value others more than you value yourself. Which on the one hand says that you are a great friend and are quite responsible. But when its your life or your money on the line, you take a much different approach. An approach that says that you don't care, except that clearly you do. I've seen a similar approach with other players where there's also a part of this where they feel like they aren't responsible for their actions, and for their life. That somehow there is much outside of their control, or within their lives that is being controlled by someone else, and so the feeling is they aren't responsible for their life, when in fact they are. Does this apply for you as well?

It makes perfect sense why people would feel this way when you look at it developmentally. We come into the world completely dependent on others for everything. As we get older we are given more and more control over our lives. Although, as often happens some of those old patterns of others being responsible for us hang around longer than they should. They need to be upgraded like a software program to reflect how you want to live your life now.

It's important to keep in mind that this cause is something that doesn't necessarily show up at all times, its only when you're emotions are heightened to the point where they override your logical mind. When that happens the problem is exposed.

Before I post anymore, I want to first see if I'm on target so far. Feel free to post anything else that you can think of as to the reason why you Tilt. Then I can post some additional ideas on how to correct your Tilt, and/or you can refer to some of the other posts in this thread.

Hi Jared, thanks for the reply. You are pretty much on the money with your analysis. Will post back when have more time to reflect on what you said. Thanks.
Thanks Tapirboy for the comments. They were very interesting and I agree with a lot of what you said.
It looks like part of the problem can be solved by just posting. I appreciate the replies. Dan