I think this is a great post, specifically you said:

"What is the problem with running bad and loosing hands? Logically you know its part of the game, but emotionally you want to avoid it, but why?"

I think that hit home for me as well. Now I can't speak for euler217, but for me I find myself "avoiding" play when I am doing well. Now, this is quite counter-intuitive. But the question still remains...why do we do it?

It is a huge leak (whether to not play enough for fear, or to tend to want to avoid +EV situations such as getting dealt KK or AA) For me, I love getting dealt those hands, its just more of playing issue. I will be sitting there doing nothing and the thought will occur to play, and I will think about how I am happy with my game right now because I have been having good success, so an immediate sense of not wanting to play washes over me. So I will either do something else (instead of go make money!) or I will play for a bit and get up a buy-in and insta quit. I have the need to "protect" what I've won. So if I sit with 10 bucks....and I doubled up and suddenly have $19.80....mentally I'll think...nice, I have an extra $9.80 here! Then like 5 hands later through blinds etc I might have $19.50...and I'm thinking...if I had just quit, I would have saved 30 cents...if I keep playing, this trend might continue. This leads to short sessions....which do add up and ARE profitable....but then when next time comes around I get caught back in the original trap of not wanting to play because I have been successful! So, I think I probably need to just play longer sessions. I think I need not worry about that $19.80 coming back to $10, or even worse. If I am playing my game, and I am +EV, it shouldn't matter. What do you think?

Hi Jared, thanks for doing this.

I play 5/10 NLHE regularly online, and like everyone, I sometimes make mistakes. Actually, I often make mistakes. I have always been very critical of my self in everything I do, and poker has been no different (maybe it has even magnified that trait). Despite the success I've enjoyed over the past couple years, I still constantly beat myself up over mistakes I've made. Sometimes it will only bother me for a couple or few hours, but other times I will wake up the next morning with that same mistake in my mind. I have no doubt that this is hurting my game overall, not to mention my overall quality of life. My method of coping with what I perceive as mistakes is to hunt down a fellow player on MSN and ask for their opinion. Much to my surprise, I'll often find that other good players agree with how I played a hand that I previously thought of as a misplay. Other times, they won't, and I will have it confirmed in my mind that I played the hand poorly. I have considered hiring a mental coach to help me with this problem, but I see this super self-critical, results-oriented behavior as something that is permanently ingrained in me. Any advice you could offer me would be greatly appreciated.

Kyle

I'm happy to see such a great response so far, and appreciate the appreciation. This thread is a good thing for me as well. I get a bit of a self selected sample from my coaching (this thread is too to a degree) and this gives me a chance to understand more players and get better at explaining what I know. Obviously there are benefits for you all, and so far it looks like we can make this a win/win.

At first glance I sounds like the issue is that you are taking it personally. It isn't personal its poker. Since your fine loosing the same amount of money, money or losing isn't the issue, its loosing money to one person. Does it almost feel like that person is stealing money from you? Clearly the way they are winning it's reasonable to feel that way.

Since you're a pro, logically you know this is how the game is designed, but the important thing is that you're able to maintain this logical frame of mind when it happens. Here's how I'd recommend getting through it:

1) Recognize that your frustration is rising. This is often the most overlooked part of eliminating/preventing tilt. You have to know when to put the strategy into play and it isn't obvious, you need to learn the signs really well, because Tilt shuts off your ability to think clearly so you need to know the signs cold. Look for the subtle signs (physical, mental, emotional) for how it builds. Tilt rarely just explodes, it usually builds up, and if you can recognize the build up then you have a chance at prevent it.

You may want to also see if there are any other factors away from poker that contribute to a day where 3 suckouts could effect you more, like getting less sleep, probs with friends/sig other, etc.

2) After you've recognized emotion rising, you need to first take a couple deep breaths, with the intent of trying to seperate yourself from the emotion a bit. The anger can consume you, and the deep breath is a way of taking a step back so you can change the reaction.

3) On a note card, write out clearly a statement that will remind you of you want to think/react to the situation. This is critical too because you can't rely on your thinking to get you out of it, you need a reminder. Overtime, the note card often becomes irrelavent because the remidner is known so well.

4) Get yourself refocused on making solid decisions. In the short run, the anger may linger for a bit, but there is a massive training effect if you can push through it and keep playing. Too many players quit at the first sign of trouble and this doesn't give you the opportunity to play your way through it. Of course to do that you need a good strategy.


This is not a magic cure, you'll have to work hard to change the pattern, but the things I've mentioned should help. Overtime your Tilt should get less and less - it rarely disappears instantly. Think of it like chopping down a tree with an ax vs. a chain saw.

Let me know how it goes.

YW Tack. Let me know if this helps...


As I see it you have two symptoms arising from one goal. High ambition inherently is not a problem. I imagine that you have set high goals for yourself because you intuitively believe that you are capable of reaching great heights. I think this is a great thing. To have such believe in yourself so much that you are willing to put everything you have to acheive it. Inherently not a problem, the problem is in your expectations of the time frame which your achivement will take place.

The question is how did this get out of whack? It arises out of ommitting the negative side of your variance (or your range) as a player. If you were to chart your game on a bell curve, my guess is that you have a high SD, meaning that your bell curve is probably pretty flat. The extreme negative side, and here I'm talking specifically of the poker mistakes, not the mental ones, the F game as you call it. Those mistakes are omitted from your analysis when making a decision about how much you can expect from your game. I say decision, but its likely that this happens unconsciously, where you basically just focus on the good parts of your game, the positive results you've had and base your expectations from that.

The problem is that by ommitting/excluding the negative parts of your game from the equation, when the do show up, it shakes your confidence. Blindsiding you because it seemingly comes out of no where, but the only reason it seems like it comes out of no where is that you have blocked it out. And on some level it is reasonable why you'd block it out since the poker mistakes you are making on Tilt are likely so basic they are laughable. So to image that those mistakes are actually in your range (bell curve) and are possible is lunacy. Only the reality says differently.

See confidence is something that come from demonstratable skill. It is a byproduct of it skill, not something that produces results. Results over the long-term are directly connected with skill, confidence is a feeling, feelings don't produce results.

So if you are going to fix this, you have to do two things,

1) fix the poker mistakes that show up and prove that you can improve your worst, under the circumstances that force them to the surface. Apples to Apples - you need to get better when you normally would Tilt. There's more on Tilt in my last post Reefy - and specifically the process of chipping away at the issue. It will not go away right away. Your goal should be to narrow the range in your game from the backside (negative side). Forget about improving the best parts of your game for the next 100k hands. If you work on just improving the negative side and make tangible gains over that sample size, you'll have enough reps to prove that you've made some solid changes - though it could even take more.

2) Adjust your expectations for yourself to take into consideration the entirety of your range. Doing so should hopefully allow some natural motivation to come from realizing that you are not as good as you thought. That doesn't mean that you can't get there, but sustainable growth, key word sustainable, means that you can do perform across all situations, especially the ones that are hard.

There's more on this in the second video of the foundation series, where I talk about a concept called Inch Worm. Which basically describes the process of improvement coming from both the positive side and the negative side of your bell curve. Most people/players focus on improving their best, it is crictical to focus also on improving your worst.

Glad to know you enjoyed the videos! May be premature to sticky this, though its a great compliment.

Interesting situation, I'm not sure if I know the best solution here. Clearly you and I know that you can't have a feel for a game where the house has a built in edge over the long-term. His believe may be reinforced by some short-term varience and in the long-run may end up slowly bleeding his roll.

The way to get through to him, may be to talk about goals and what his motivation is with playing. Is he looking to get lucky and hit a big score? Or is he looking to actually do something productive in the situation he find himself. There are a lot of good things, imo, that can transfer outside of poker, from learning the game. Pros are basically running a small business and having to manage their primary asset (them). It is challenging to play this game for a living on many levels and learning those skills I think directly translates back into the workforce or in terms of future opportunities to run small businesses. Taken in that frame of mind, poker could be present with opportunity not just in the short term, but long-term as well. BJ on the other hand is like playing the lottery. The house edge is fixed unless doing something like you mentioned (which the casinos made of course illegal and worthy of tossing him out - so it isn't a sustainable long-term strategy either).

I think in the end it'll come down to what he's looking for, what his motives are. My guess right now is there a twinge of desperation and he may have no clue what he wants to do.

This is a ridiculously awesome thread and I fully intend to think through my problems and compile them into a question haha. Just wanna say in advance thanks for making this thread!

I appreciate your trust that I might be able to help. Let me know how I do

As an observation to start off here, it is clear to me that you have a very strong sense of the pattern that you are dealing with. That isn't something to take lightly (underappreciate). It is massive. The first step to making changes stick or to make effective change is to have a good sense of where you are. A baseline in a sense of where you are right now. Not where you want to be, not where you think you are, but in reality what is the pattern that you are struggling with. You have that and it is huge.

I wonder if you feel a bit more clarity from having written this out? I've found that so often things can easily get cluttered within the mind, especially when trying desperately to solve the problem, that the whole issue gets tangled up in your head so much that you become paralyzed out of being overwhelmed by what is swirling through your mind. Paralysis that further leads to some hopelessness. It sounds like that's where you were before you wrote this out, are things clearer now?

The reason I ask is because the things you are talking about are too big to try to manipulate in your mind. The part of the brain where this analysis takes place is called working memory, it isn't a big place - estimates range from 5-9 bits of information can be held in there at one time (its the reason why phone numbers in the US are 7 digits (right in the middle, minus the area code of course). Your stressing a system beyone capacity to serve a function that it alone cannot fulfill. Since this has been a burdon you've been carrying alone, getting the things swirling in your mind out on paper or the computer will give you:

1)Another perspective since its out of your head, you can look at your thoughts more objectively.

2) You have better ability to reference previous thoughts. Since it is out on paper, you can look back to things you wrote previously and that gives a powerful reference as you try to figure it out.

3) Your mind is freed up and you'll be able to think more clearly and more logically. It is most likely in that state of mind that you'll come to some answers.


As for the regret that you have about how things turned out. It sounds like you feel that way because you wanted the easy route. The easy route wasn't the hand you were dealt. When faced hard/challenging times, you can use the experience you gain from it as a resource to bring yourself to higher ground than you likely could without it. Meaning that, it is impossible to tell the opportunities that may come to you or that you may create because of this. What is assured, is that if you continue to wish things to be another way, then you won't be able to seize the opportunity as it exists in reality. The memories, the mistakes, the lessons of the past are provide opportunity to learn to make the present more fulfilling/fruitful/rich, etc. Taken as a negative the past can bring you down. Taken as opportunity to evaluate, understand and learn, the past is a foundation for success in the future. But even in the future there will be many more challenges ahead, but with the experience of working through them, you'll be able to meet each one and figure out how to transcend it.

There are a few issues here. First off, is the issue of when do you realize money won? The nature of the game is such that money you have at the table is better looked at as an investment, money that is working for you because you have an edge in the game. That edge is spread over enough hands to produce earned money. That's why you have a bankroll to absorb fluctuations in variance. It seems like you're prematurely realizing the money that you've won as being yours as realized income. That naturally leads you to protect what you percieved as having won, and rightfully so this should feel weird because it isn't entirely real.

Would be interesting to know when other players realize income?

The other part of this is the randomness of when you play and your goals in the game. Do you have defined goals, and do you have things in your game (skill wise) that you are working on? If not, this will help to organize your time a bit more and give you some motive for why you are playing - other than just the money.

Hey Kyle - In my world being self critical is a learned trait. If you strip down what it is as a thing - its basically just you being analytical. Making an analysis. The problem comes in when that analysis turns negative, perhaps because you expect yourself to not make mistakes. The negative edge to this can be cleared up, I've help facilitate it with many players. The analytical part you clearly want to keep and instead utilize in a way that is far more productive, rather than destructive as it is now.

Couple things to think about. What is the difference for you when you are analyzing vs. critizing? I'm guessing there are times where you aren't so hard on yourself and in a decent mood and can see things more objectively. What is that like - write it out and when it happens, you can add to the list. On the other side, what is the critism like? What goes through your mind? How do you feel? Etc.

I've often found that critism is often a misguided attempt at motivation. Motivation to improve the areas where you fell short. Clearly you need to first identify what went wrong to even being working on it, but when it comes to the analysis, it turns into critism, why? Does it come back to the expectation that mistakes shouldn't happen? Or that you feel like your game isn't as strong as you thought because of the mistakes?

The reality is that mistake HAVE to happen if you are learning or working on your game. Period. If you are learning (meaning that you are in the process of) then by definition you HAVE to make mistakes. Otherwise you would already know. I had a similar conversation with a client the other day, and realized that there have been many poker players who were crushing games a couple years ago and the games have completely passed them by because they stopped learning and working on their game. To stay up in an environment this competitive you have to be working on your game (learning in a sense), and if you are then by definition you have to make mistakes. All it all, the key should be to learn from them as quickly as possible and to ensure you don't have any major leaks.

Let me know if this helps. At a minimum I hope that you know that aspects of a person's personality can change. The brain, the mind, personality, etc, all these things that have previously been thought of as static entities are not at all. They are can be shaped and refined and changed. It just takes some work and the right information.

I think you really just helped me to realize the root of my problem when you said:

It is definitely because I feel like my game isn't as strong as I thought (or as strong as I want it to be) because of the mistakes. I think this all ties into my obsession over poker, and how I view it as a major part of my life. I have many regrets about mistakes I have made throughout life, and I see poker as an opportunity to kind of make-up for some of those mistakes. I have also given up a lot in an attempt to be successful at poker. Looking at it like this, it becomes more clear to me why mistakes affect me as much as they do.

It does help to better understand where those negative feelings come from, but I am still at a loss for trying to find ways to deal with them more effectively.

Thanks again Jared, I may PM you in the near future for some coaching.

damn and i just paid a grand :P

thanks for the reply Jared

Cool thread! I don't know if they should, but these three things about my game kinda bother me:

1) I find I get quickly demotivated with poker if I'm not winning and will find excuses to "have a rest" whenever I run into a long break-even stretch. This then leads to the odd situation where I'll know that I could play the levels above (with a lower ROI) and make more per hour than I can at the lower limit, but because I get so demotivated by break-even stretches I'll end up playing less hours and thus make less money overall. It's not so much that the variance bothers me, as it is the fact that I hate wasting my time (massive downswings bother me alot less than long break-even stretches... ).

2) I find it very hard to count rakeback, bonuses, etc as part of my winnings. This leads to the situation where I could make more playing a higher limit because of the higher rake and hence higher rakeback, but because I don't really feel like this is part of my winnings I'll have a harder time convincing myself it's worth it (kinda related to Q1). By the same illogical reasoning, I also have an real disdain for "rake-back pros" who don't actually make any profit from the games.

3) If I have a close decision between folding and not folding, then I always tend to fold, if: a) I'm going to have to do anymore thinking in the hand (ie: just shoving all-in pre-flop in a SNG I'll happily take very small edges), or b) Calling a possible bluff that might tilt me if I get it wrong (ie: I'm happier just folding and not knowing what they had than I am calling and getting it wrong).

I have a feeling all three of these things come down to the same thing basically: I no longer enjoy playing poker for the sake of poker and just play to make money so somehow I'm subconsciously trying to maximize the amount of hours I can play by minimizing anything that irritates or fatigues me.

It seems that (1) and (3) have made me into a good grinder, but I'm pretty sure they've held me back when it comes to moving up limits (I remember making a post like this when I made my first $10k from online poker several years ago and sadly not much has changed in my way of thinking since then...).

Any insight on any of these?

Juk

Is it possible to think and react differently (compared to how I think/react at the moment) while in fight or flight mode? I tend to freeze up and make bad decisions when I'm put in an unexpected, unfamiliar or pressurized situation.