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Old 06-22-2012, 06:12 PM   #46
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by clowntable View Post
It's not that easy. Of course there are plenty of horribly run businesses that abuse this lobby-capitalism to the fullest. Both deserve our disgust.

Silly overaggregation but it's a pretty odd thing:
Somehow "the left" tends to focus on the evil business side (while praising all of government) and "the right" tends to focus on the evil government (while praising all businesses)
Imo, businesses are just responding to what the government has turned into. Individuals and therefore businesses, will always be greedy. It is human nature. We can not change that.

However, we can change the way the government is organized. If the government is set up in such a way that protects individuals' freedom and liberty (eg. strictly following the constitution), then rent seeking businesses will not be able to lobby for things that provide them with above normal profits while screwing everyone else.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:20 PM   #47
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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I guarantee that if this guy had the opportunity to switch places with any of the 1%'ers, he would do it in a heart beat and would never look back. I think there is a lot of jealousy involved in this whole 99% vs 1% argument. Some points are valid but you can't just ignore capitalism and rewarding successful people.

I feel that there is some gray area between the ideal level of taxes and wealth re-distribution but to take too much from the rich and give to the poor, will kill our nation's future (speaking US here.)
I recommend The Anti-Capitalist Mindset if you want to learn more about why the 99% people hate capitalism.

FWI, I think that a large % of capitalist haters seem to believe that the vast majority of the 1% got their wealth by stealing or scamming others somehow. Not sure where that comes from but that's just an insight from my own experience.

Wealth re-distribution by the government is always a terrible thing. It steps on individual liberties and reduces incentives to create wealth. However, the government goes about this will include a massive amount of waste. Think about how much wealth gets redistributed voluntarily anyway. Billions are given to charitable causes every year.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:07 AM   #48
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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With all the tax breaks that the rich have around the world at the moment, that isn't happening and it's causing the collapse of the worlds economies that we are witnessing.
Who is "we"? I'm not witnessing a collapse of the world's economies; I'm witnessing the cyclical nature of economies in action.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:19 AM   #49
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Who is "we"? I'm not witnessing a collapse of the world's economies; I'm witnessing the cyclical nature of economies in action.
What's happening now has even more historical significance than even most people realize.

Europe is slowly coming to terms with its fiscal and (eventually) political unification.

Perhaps even more significantly, the crisis is truly bringing home, for many, the fact that the world economies are more integrated than ever. It's unprecedented how all the major central banks (BoJapan, Federal Reserve, Russia and everyone else really) are already deeply involved in what's, so far, a supposedly European crisis.

Another thing that one of my politics professors (an authority on war in the field) pointed out to me was how remarkable the thought of use of force isn't even crossing anyone's minds. 70 years ago, the newspaper headlines would be quite different.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:22 AM   #50
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

People shouldn't automatically dismiss the notion that redistributing money from the rich could be a good thing overall. In his new book, Stiglitz makes a case for redistribution, arguing that it would actually be better for growth and stability.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:35 AM   #51
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

The ends don't justify the means. If it's not done voluntarily, it's immoral.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:02 PM   #52
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by t_roy View Post
However, we can change the way the government is organized. If the government is set up in such a way that protects individuals' freedom and liberty (eg. strictly following the constitution), then rent seeking businesses will not be able to lobby for things that provide them with above normal profits while screwing everyone else.
Except for the fact that there has never been a government that was chained by a piece of paper. The constitution of the US was violated by the US government almost as soon as it was created. Also, it was written to be especifically vague, but that's not the issue. Republicanism and democracy are forces of de-civilization.

If you want limited government, then what you want is monarchies. Of course, that's impossible nowadays. And it doesn't really solve the core problem. But it's important to understand that the transition from monarchies to republican democracies was not a transition towards more freedom and prosperity, but rather a transition away from respecting property rights and away from civilization, towards barbarism and chaos.

For more on this read Democracy: The God That Failed by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, or just listen to this short 40 minute lecture: World War I as the End of Civilization, by Hoppe
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:02 PM   #53
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

At the end wealth is created by manual labour. The miners and workers who actually build the iphone just dont get the share they would actually deserve. They struggle to survive whereas others take the main profit out of their work.
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:18 PM   #54
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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At the end wealth is created by manual labour.
50 years ago that was still partially true.
Today wealth is created by intellect, not muscles. And what remains of human assembly (most is automated today) is commoditized, which is why it's mostly done in Asia. A free market will always optimize the allocation of resources if left alone. That's practically a tautology.

Last edited by NewOldGuy; 06-23-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:03 PM   #55
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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At the end wealth is created by manual labour. The miners and workers who actually build the iphone just dont get the share they would actually deserve. They struggle to survive whereas others take the main profit out of their work.
No, it is not. This concept that labor creates wealth was destroyed over a hundred years ago. This falsehood has destroyed civilizations and I cannot believe to this day people still get indoctrinated to believe it.

Go bust rocks in the middle of no where with a maul for the next ten years and tell me how much wealth you create.
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #56
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Go bust rocks in the middle of no where with a maul for the next ten years and tell me how much wealth you create.
Ah, but where will he get the maul?
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:04 PM   #57
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by razrback View Post
No, it is not. This concept that labor creates wealth was destroyed over a hundred years ago. This falsehood has destroyed civilizations and I cannot believe to this day people still get indoctrinated to believe it.

Go bust rocks in the middle of no where with a maul for the next ten years and tell me how much wealth you create.
Go watch whats left of your wealth without the manual labour and physical work of the vast majority of the population. Have fun running around naked, picking your own grapes for your whine, your beans for your coffee... pretty much anything.

The working class is dependent from the upper class, so is the upper class from the working class. The working class could exist without the upper class though, the upper class couldnt.

Its just that the wealth isnt spread equally or at least a little more fair... and its getting worse day by day

Last edited by GeorgevanZandt; 06-23-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:25 PM   #58
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by soon2bepro View Post
Except for the fact that there has never been a government that was chained by a piece of paper. The constitution of the US was violated by the US government almost as soon as it was created. Also, it was written to be especifically vague, but that's not the issue. Republicanism and democracy are forces of de-civilization.

If you want limited government, then what you want is monarchies. Of course, that's impossible nowadays. And it doesn't really solve the core problem. But it's important to understand that the transition from monarchies to republican democracies was not a transition towards more freedom and prosperity, but rather a transition away from respecting property rights and away from civilization, towards barbarism and chaos.

For more on this read Democracy: The God That Failed by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, or just listen to this short 40 minute lecture: World War I as the End of Civilization, by Hoppe
Just because it has yet to be done, does not mean that governments can not be made to follow their constitutions. For example, if legislators faced criminal penalties for proposing anti-constitutional legislation, then that would go a long long way. I'm sure that there are many ways to keep the government in check.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:27 PM   #59
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by GeorgevanZandt View Post
Go watch whats left of your wealth without the manual labour and physical work of the vast majority of the population. Have fun running around naked, picking your own grapes for your whine, your beans for your coffee... pretty much anything.

The working class is dependent from the upper class, so is the upper class from the working class. The working class could exist without the upper class though, the upper class couldnt.

Its just that the wealth isnt spread equally or at least a little more fair... and its getting worse day by day
So you think that the guy that builds the iphone could have invented it himself? You're just pissed off that you don't have the ability to invent something like the iphone imo.
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by GeorgevanZandt View Post
Go watch whats left of your wealth without the manual labour and physical work of the vast majority of the population. Have fun running around naked, picking your own grapes for your whine, your beans for your coffee... pretty much anything.

The working class is dependent from the upper class, so is the upper class from the working class. The working class could exist without the upper class though, the upper class couldnt.

Its just that the wealth isnt spread equally or at least a little more fair... and its getting worse day by day
On iPhone only for next few days but I'll respond then, til then look up the marginal revolution circa 1871 when virtually the entire civilized world (re)discovered that labor does not create wealth.

Also, wtf are these seemingly homogenous "working class" and "upper class"?
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