what were you planning to do on the river unimproved if he checks to you? what is the main goal in raising the turn? is it to get more money into the pot to set up a river bet if you hit, and occasionally get better hands to fold on the turn? how often should you be betting the river here unimproved? really curious about these questions, as I am unsure myself.

given that you have the Jh, his line is really bizarre. No idea what he could have, and can't really come up with a bluff that he could have. His sizing is unnecessarily large for a bluff, too. J8 or J6!? curious about results.

agree

the better he is, the more likely im folding

raising turn sucks because the board is 2tone on the flop, and no one gives anyone credit for slowplaying anything on 2tone coordinating flop, so your perceived range is ridic small, and no **** he tanked for 2 minutes.

I don't get turn raise either. I would just call turn and call or raise river depending on sizing. As played I want to fold the river, although the speed is off putting. Whenever I am in a spot like villian I always tank the turn and think about the river. In general I like to give people credit for big hands in big pots until they give me some reason not to. Mid 20's and scandanavian is close but not quite good enough imo.

I also don't like the turn raise.

The river is a sick spot because it seems we have a bluff catcher and it's also a terrible spot to bluff. I don't think he'd play a set that way on the turn. It's unlikely he has a bare jack unless he made a sick value bet followed by soul read on the turn but I guess it's possible. If we're beat I expect it to be by AJ, KJ, and J8s of which there's total 8 combos. If he's loose enough to open J8o preflop then that adds 3 more combos. That give at most 11 combos that beat us but I think you can discount some full houses because of his turn bet sizing. If you can think of 4-5 combos of bluffs then go ahead and call. I'd probably call just out of curiosity but it's probably about the same EV as folding.

Hey guys posting from my phone, sorry about the late results(thx for the msgs btw), was involved in a couple of Day 2's.. And no didn't win anything major

Anyway, I called and villain had KQs for a busted flush draw/gutter..

OK now I have more time.. the reasons for the turnraise were:

- can fold out Ax esp given stacks and my solid tight-ish image
- even with AK I dont think he's going to 3b turn or be able to c/c a big river bet from me..
- despite him not having 2barreled I think the turn is a good card for him to continue with his bluffs
- he would weigh my hand much more towards value hands as opposed to draws when I raised the turn, which would make it easier for me to bluff him out on the river when he checks, and if flush hits I would be able to value him more often
- I felt the possibility of him bet/3bet on the turn was very slim and certainly didn't expect him to lead out on the river hence the thread..

again result was I called and he had KhQh

yeah nice play 663366. those reasons are valid. sick hand

Im too lazy to figure out how to multi quote, but I'm going to attack each point you made.

1. misread this it will be addressed later anyways. only reason this might work is your solid tight image.

2. if he's good you're turn raise polarizes you're range to prolly AJ+ or the millions of combo draws or straight draws that you could have when that turn comes. KThh KQhh T9hh 97hh 75hh etc. It is likely, with stacks that deep that you would raise flop with sets or two pair. I am not folding AK here. AX is prolly the same as well since you are polarized here.

3. yeah it is. that's why you should just call with your bluff catcher hand on the turn. why raise and get yourself in a position where you might get 3 bet if he happens to have a hand. especially when you have outs no matter what he has.

4. doesn't vibe with AK being a fold if you bomb blank river comment you made in 2. if you raise turn and heart comes on river villain is folding everything but flushes. or he should.

5. just cuz he'd rarely bet/3bet, doesn't make it ok. when he does 3 bet you on the turn you'll have to fold and wasted a hand that has equity. you don't really fold worse a lot with your turn raise. maybe some weaker aces, but really AX is the same as AK when you make that turn raise. The only hands worse that call you are combo heart draws, and those might 3 bet bluff you off your hand.

You're correct in a lot of what u say, i posted what i thought in-game and if i played the hand now i would just flat the turn and let him bluff river instead and avoid inflating the pot before i have value hand and also in case he had a monster so yes i agree with u.

Given results, is his river lead good or no?

terrible, you range shouldn't have made hands that you fold to what he's repping

it's terrible against a good player.

I would have a hard time finding a fold button here... If he is a good player, then I would expect him to check raise all his value hands on river rather than donkbetting. If your perceived range after turn raise is: 1. Flopped set, combodraws, random hands, then why would he ever donkbet? Makes you fold everything you missed, and you would bet your value hands on river anyway. Only hand he could get value from is Ax, and as played there are very few combos of that. Not to mention that expecting a call from Ax in his situation is rather optimistic.

His turn sizing is key for me. It's really small. I therefore severely discount enormous hands like sets. Even tupes like AJ you'd expect he'd bet bigger. I would usually call turn in this spot, but I actually don't mind your raise if it is rooted in sensing weakness in his bet. You do need to be prepared to fire river to get him off a naked Ace, if he calls. But overall, that seems to just introduce a lot of variance without a clear increase in profit, so just catch with the bluff catcher.

As played, I'm definitely calling river. I'm not thrilled about it, because it is hard to see what he could have that we beat (except what we later learn he has), but the turn bet and the river donk both imply weakness. I would expect him to check raise or check call his boats, depending on the strength.