Great 2-3-5-10(straddle) game. At the time my read on villain is that he's a rich fish/very likely a whale who's very loose and also spewy. He has no fear of losing money and and always buys in deep, his stack fluctuates a ton. I've played with him several times but that's all I had to work with.

Hero is utg (covers) on straddle and villain (~3,200) is sb. EP opens 70, 3 calls including villain, and I defend Q8dd. Flop(350) 236ddd and villain leads 250, I call everyone else folds. Turn (850)4c, he bets 400 and I raise to 1,200. In less than 1 second after my chips hit the pot villain says all in. So it's around 1,700 more to call to win 4,950.

Would you call? Thoughts on all streets?

If pre is a call then its a clear stackoff.

In what universe would this be a fold vs described opponent?

Also fwiw you shouldn't have a raise/fold value range vs this opponent.

Hang on, you seriously don't think Q8s is a slam dunk call here? We only need to realize 17% equity here getting almost 5 to 1. And we are deep, with at least one big fish in the pot.

BTW I also left out (because I didn't think pre flop would be a debate whatsoever) that the opener and one of the other callers are both big fish.

What range do you put him on?

yes

In this situation specifically? or ever? If I believe I'm ahead of his range I should never raise to get value from it and then re-evaluate vs further actions that change his range?

Also, I hope I'm not coming off as defensive or argumentative. Just want to get into some detailed discussion. Appreciate the responses so far, hope they keep coming.

Just to add a couple things, maybe from my OP it appears I've seen him do crazy things for huge amounts of money, but I haven't. I really just had a very general read that he was a spewy and loose fish, but nothing specific at all like hyper aggressive or anything.

Also,the game is normally just 2-3-5nl and it's the biggest nl game the casino runs. We had been doing the straddle consistently for an hour or so though.

as played i'd stack off for up to 5k here. at 3k you're probably good 50% of time if not a bit more.

but i'd fold pre. in this sort of game (assuming most people are 3k deep) my calling ranges are 60% in hijack, 90% on cutoff, 100% on button, 5% on sb, 10% on bb, and 15% on straddle. but obviously preflop is the least solved part of holdem so i may be drastically wrong.

Are you saying you call 100% of raises when you're on the button?

Fold pre. Probably call off.

This

Pre IMO is pretty marginal. 70 is a lot for this game and you can wait for a better spot although I'd probably call unless your reads Aren't solid. As for postflop this deep vs a big fish I wouldn't have a value raise/fold range ever. The only reason for raising here is to gii, personally I would just call to river and maybe stuff if board doesn't pair. I think there are merits to raising all streets as vill most likely won't fold nfd+pair on flop and may also gii with a set and smaller flushes.

Really surprised about all the fold pre talk getting almost 5-1 vs 3 fish who are all deep and I cover. It's not against all regs and 1 fish or anything. Kinda blows my mind you guys saying fold.

It's because Q8s doesn't play that well multi-way, especially when you aren't last to act post. Since you did play it and did flop the 4th effective nuts, this is a snap against described V.

What if I said I actually had T8 here? Still fold pre? Still call turn jam?

The deeper you are the more you have to consider rip. If you don't understand this concept then its better if you don't play deep. I'm not saying this hand is an absolute fold or call and given reads and action I probably call pre and gii at some point, although I would probably fold something like 45s on turn or river if he kept firing.

Assuming you meant RIO? I'm very aware and also have a ton of experience playing deep, with good results. It's not like I'm gonna hit top pair and lose a bunch of money 5 handed, same with trips, multi way I can get free cards fairly often to hit gutters/oesd' ect, I'm gonna lose less than the rec players when crushed and definitely make a lot more when crushing them. Which is why I am sure it's a call pre.

Boggles my mind when I say there are 3 BIG fish (all deep) and you guys (not you TimeBomb) say fold needing to only realize 17%+ equity post. I can't imagine any high stakes crushers disagreeing with this.

But I'm a fish anyway, because I actually had J8dd and tank folded and he showed trip 2's. I talked myself out of a call, even with that price, because his snap all in made me think he had to have a flush. Just figured he would have to at least think about it with a set (I mean there's a 4 card straight and 3 diamonds out there) or straight, and maybe even a small flush. So I definitely put WAY too much weight on his timing. I guess I should actually fold 100% on the straddle there, or just quit poker

The snap all in without thinking about it for such a big pot when I showed so much strength wouldn't have affected anyone with so many combos of bigger flushes possible?

This thread just reminded and depressed me that I made such a bad fold. Time for a drink.

Yes you fold (after a few seconds)

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
Qx8x	17.74%	102,402	9,088
20%	22.54%	128,209	15,563
30%	19.92%	112,184	16,141
30%	19.88%	112,009	16,020
30%	19.93%	112,271	16,129

this is not actually the relevant calculation to consider, but it should start giving you second thoughts.

yes (assuming a raise and 3 calls in front)

Also fwiw Rio is return on investment and rip is reverse implied odds they are not the same thing. Rip is when you hit and are not good etc having ak and pairing vs aa. That being said this game sounds fantastic my mom doesn't know hand rankings but I bet I could teach her to beat this game in 3 months.

This hand isn't in the top 15%, calling 100% on the button is abysmal, sorry you ran into a higher flush.