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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 04-29-2017, 10:26 AM   #1
DrCooper
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Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Villain is good reg. Plays aggressively and exploitatively in live games. Understand he is also a winner in 200z games on stars. No real history with hero. Hero is young male playing fairly tight and solid.

5/10/20 7 handed
Hero (3k) opens AThh UTG 60
BTN -loose passive fish (3k) calls. SB -loose passive fish (1k) calls. V (covers) completes in Strd.

Flop (250)
Tc8h5c
X. V leads 200. Hero (thinks for a while) calls. Fold. Fold.

Turn (650)
Kc
X. X.

River (650)
Qh
X. Hero?

Should I bet river (obv as bluff!)? If so sizing?
Anything different on Flop or Turn?
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Old 04-29-2017, 05:14 PM   #2
lolposting2016
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

check river nh
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Old 04-29-2017, 07:18 PM   #3
diskoteque
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Don't see a reason to bet. If he got cold feet with a set or two pair or something he's not folding here
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Old 04-29-2017, 07:40 PM   #4
lolposting2016
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

( ) top pair
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:49 PM   #5
Lego05
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

What better hand could a bet conceivably get to fold? He can't even have AhQh or QhJh because the river is the Qh (and if the river was the Qd, he might call a river bet with those given your check back on the turn [why would you check back the turn with a hand better than a pair of queens?].

Just check back river.
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Old 04-29-2017, 11:02 PM   #6
ziggyzaooo
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

I think you'd have to bet turn/river if you wanted to bluff

just betting one street isn't gonna work imo.
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Old 04-30-2017, 05:41 AM   #7
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

So for those that suggest checking back, what hands do you choose to bluff here? The only worse hands possible are T9s and JTs. We must have some bluffs here since there are definitely value hands that we want to bet.
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Old 04-30-2017, 09:59 AM   #8
diskoteque
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Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCooper View Post
So for those that suggest checking back, what hands do you choose to bluff here? The only worse hands possible are T9s and JTs. We must have some bluffs here since there are definitely value hands that we want to bet.


You don't need to win every pot

It just isn't a great spot to bluff but if you are determined to bluff I would overbet here
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Old 04-30-2017, 01:43 PM   #9
isunkurbttlship
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCooper View Post
So for those that suggest checking back, what hands do you choose to bluff here? The only worse hands possible are T9s and JTs. We must have some bluffs here since there are definitely value hands that we want to bet.
You don't have any 8s, 76s etc?
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Old 04-30-2017, 08:17 PM   #10
BackDoorFlush
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Check back river. I'm happy to get to showdown with this hand.
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:14 AM   #11
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by isunkurbttlship View Post
You don't have any 8s, 76s etc?
No. I fold 8s on flop with 2 players to act behind. I bet 76s on turn 100% (if I even open this UTG).

In hindsight I think I do have worse hands specifically T9s and JTs and so I should use T9s as my bluff here. For value have KTs, QTs, QQ which is only 8 combos and so using the 3 T9s combos is sufficient to balance my range.
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:16 AM   #12
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
You don't need to win every pot

It just isn't a great spot to bluff but if you are determined to bluff I would overbet here
It's not about trying to win every pot its about balancing my range with the appropriate bluffs.

I actually did check back and he also had AT.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:03 PM   #13
keybattle
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by DrCooper View Post
No. I fold 8s on flop with 2 players to act behind. I bet 76s on turn 100% (if I even open this UTG).

In hindsight I think I do have worse hands specifically T9s and JTs and so I should use T9s as my bluff here. For value have KTs, QTs, QQ which is only 8 combos and so using the 3 T9s combos is sufficient to balance my range.
I think you need to work out your value combos of this line first?
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:06 PM   #14
Minatorr
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

^^ Yeah
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Old 05-06-2017, 01:36 PM   #15
day'n'night
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

if he donks AT in this hand, then you should start repoping him much more aggressively. AThh should be a raise on the flop, so should alot of other combos.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:56 AM   #16
applesauce123
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Block nut straight, good spot to shove
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:10 PM   #17
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by day'n'night View Post
if he donks AT in this hand, then you should start repoping him much more aggressively. AThh should be a raise on the flop, so should alot of other combos.
It's hard to put a good player on a range for a non standard play like this. But even after seeing this I don't think we can justify raising. This board is much better for his range than our range, in particular he has many more 2 pair+. I also think he is very value heavy when leading into 3 players including 2 weak players that connect with this board. I suspect AT is the bottom of his value leading range. Perhaps we should raise if we know he leads with a hand as weak as T7s but we don't know he does this. Also if we were less deep I think raising is the better play.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:11 PM   #18
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by applesauce123 View Post
Block nut straight, good spot to shove
Shoving only makes sense if we block the nuts. We don't block the nuts, just the nut straight.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:17 PM   #19
applesauce123
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Doesn't matter, he isn't checking a flush twice. Get it in
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:53 AM   #20
YGOchamp
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCooper View Post
It's hard to put a good player on a range for a non standard play like this. But even after seeing this I don't think we can justify raising. This board is much better for his range than our range, in particular he has many more 2 pair+. I also think he is very value heavy when leading into 3 players including 2 weak players that connect with this board. I suspect AT is the bottom of his value leading range. Perhaps we should raise if we know he leads with a hand as weak as T7s but we don't know he does this. Also if we were less deep I think raising is the better play.
Having a slight polarity advantage of being able to have T8s 85s and T5s doesn't nullify our overall equity advantage range vs range -- if you are not raising any overpairs and not raising any bluffs (other than strong draws), he can lead his entire range here with impunity, such as weak Tx and 8x protecting its equity and some gutters/bluffs.

AT is actually a better hand to raise than KK though because our hand requires more protection on later streets and we're blocking some of his 2pair combos
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:58 AM   #21
DrCooper
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
he can lead his entire range here with impunity
This argument only makes sense if we were headsup. Before the flop we obv have huge range advantage, but once he is leads into 3 players this puts his range ahead of our range. He cannot start exploiting the fact we overfold/never raise since the stations in the hand will just call him down.
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Old 05-26-2017, 05:12 AM   #22
TEAMTYNEZ
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Re: Turning TPTK on flop into river bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCooper View Post
So for those that suggest checking back, what hands do you choose to bluff here? The only worse hands possible are T9s and JTs. We must have some bluffs here since there are definitely value hands that we want to bet.


Probably 9c9x


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