what does b/f or c/c accomplish?

If we are going to c/c the river against a non-maniac, we should strongly consider b/f instead.

I like b/f in EXACTLY this spot because I think we are losing way too much value from villain's random x5 hands if we let him off the hook by knuckling down and checking.

Likewise, there is 0% chance that villain raises the river with anything we can't beat, so it makes folding easy if he comes back over the top.

Decent lag is building the pot and setting up stacks earlier with a boat, that's why he's capped at trips and draws heading to the river.

We have c/r'd flop multiway and led turn--> we are uncapped heading to river.

The bulk of villain's range on the river is flushes (so many more combos of that given our hand). And he's folding or checking back a lot when he does have 5x.

If you guys hate crai (and it's clear you do as you keep bringing god into it lol) it's gotta be c/f. C/c is the worst, and b/f doesn't seem much better. Obv you aren't getting raised a lot, but when you do get raised, villain isn't really repping anything as he should never be raising a flush- if he's decent. And as stated, you aren't getting called enough by worse to even make it a good value bet in the first place.

I'm still crai though, Bart Hanson or not.

im not going to x/c

no math on this but I'm not sure its valuebet

no he don't
By uncapped Hero can have K9 or 77? Oh plz. Both players have about the same range /w 5x, flushes and occasional boats

this I like

K, I guess we disagree about what a decent lag does with 300 bbs when he's obv coolered someone on a wet board. I think he always goes for value/stacks here (repping the semi-bluff), you think he don't.

That's the whole capped point I'm making, which is the cruz of the discussion and river play imo. Heading to the river, hero has done everything possible to build this pot and get value--> he can have a boat easily, villain has missed a flop 3b (no 99) and a turn raise (no 65). He's got a flush or trips on the river almost always.

Maybe its just cuz I've never played with a good LAG at 5/10 but some of them slow play me to death with boats even on wet boards. I strongly disagree that LAGs never slowplay boats here.

Do you not play 5 10, or do you really never play with a good lag? Slow playing a monster on a wet board 300 bbs deep is horrific for anyone- especially a lag. I mean it's really, really bad. Are you sure those boards are wet?

I'm in the Ck-fold camp. Don't see c/c or b/f being good, even though others have said it's an easy b/f. I just don't see it.

You only get value from random 5's. But what random 5's are out there that we beat? We have A5, 56su beats us, that just leaves 54 suited (only one combo since three of the 5's are accounted for).

So when we bet/fold, we only get called by the one remaining combo of 54suited. Even if we are generous and give him 57su and 53 su, that's still just two more combos of 5's. 3 total.

But there should be way more combos of flush draws that hit the river. AJhh, AThh, A8hh, A7hh, A6hh, A4hh, A3hh, A2hh, TJhh,78hh (and there easily could be more). Add in the remaining 56su that beats us as well.

It's 3 combos (maybe)we beat vs a lot of flushes. I don't think the guy has anything else. I c/fold here.

C/f > c/r > b/f >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c/c anything more than 1/3 the pot.

First off just for a c/r to be optimal doesn't mean villain has to be capped. He can have 99 JJ 56 and a cr could still be best if he has flushes in his value bet range on river; it will just make it less profitable. Also fwiw even 56 is a bluff catcher and a fold in villains shoes if he perceives you as incapable of bluffing in that spot.

Secondly c/c is certainly the worst option given he has no air and is never value cutting himself.

B/f is also pretty bad given he would have to assign us total air to call with 5x given gutter and FD got there.

C/f is neutral ev while cr could be marginally +ev but it will be severely -ev if any of the following occur.
-villain would fold draws by turn
-villain wouldn't value bet flushes on river fearing cr
-villain would assume you often bet boats and ends up b/c a flush

I think this points fairly clearly to a c/f.

Zach