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| Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies |
07-12-2012, 01:42 AM
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#1
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old hand
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 1,486
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TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
5/10 at The Aria. I have not played with any of these players before and the table just started about an hour before.
Villain in this hand is a late 20s-early 30s Asian male. He has been active but not overly so. He has won a few nice sized pots, only one with showdown where he called a raise OOP with KJd, check/called flop with flush draw, made flush on turn went check check, river paired, he bet then called a raise from the OR trying to get really thin value from two pair.
Hero has not played one hand at this table. Every pot has been raised preflop with the exception of 1 chop that I benefitted from. He may see me as nitty because of this but it is really just due to being severely card dead
Effective stacks are $990
Villain limps in UTG+1
Hero raises to $50 in CO with AdKs
This was a standard raise in this situation at this table.
Villain calls.
Flop 723 with 2 hearts.
Villain checks. Hero bets $75. Villain calls.
Turn Ah.
Villain leads for $240
Hero?
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07-12-2012, 03:28 AM
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#2
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grinder
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 477
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
That's a super gross spot. I'm pretty sure this is one of those "soul read" fold or call turn spots, probably rarely ever a raise. One one hand if he's aggro it really wouldn't make sense for him to passively l/c , x/c , lead with any hearts, b/c you should expect a x/r from hearts IMO. On the other hand l/c from utg he can have every one of those flop sets and was doing the ole stop & go to try to get stacks in on the river. I think, however, even tricky villains would mostly just x/r sets on a wet f/d board thinking that they can get action from you due to the 2 tone board. I think the fact that the wheel gutter is present should also be considered b/c it increases possibility of villain peeling flop with A4 or A5. Obv this is the "nut" scare card to bluff...I'm leaning toward a call, but I wouldn't fault a fold if you think he has no reason to get out of line vs you. I think flatting is >> shoving also b/c you can choose to turn your hand into a bluff on heart rivers to fold flopped sets or turned flushes whereas those hands snap call any turn bet.
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07-12-2012, 11:32 AM
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#3
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veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 2,259
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
sigh,
fold.
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07-12-2012, 12:38 PM
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#4
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old hand
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 1,486
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
I know that this is not a super interesting hand but I am a wee bit shocked that this was all I got! 
This was my thinking at the time. I am a woman(dont know if my name was a giveaway or not), that coupled with the fact that he may see me as nitty, made me think that he would feel that this would be a prime bluffing spot. I thought that he would go for a checkraise or lead smaller with a turned flush. He would have to put me on a hand pretty what I had or better to expect to get paid off. He would have to think that the A, of any suit, especially a heart, would be a scare card, so why is he betting so much?
Thoughts?
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07-12-2012, 12:42 PM
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#5
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veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 2,259
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
its a big bet.
what hands do you beat that bet it?
what are you going to do on the river if you call and he bets big, which he will do most of the time?
Your hand looks like what it is (not a hard hand to read).
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07-12-2012, 12:46 PM
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#6
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old hand
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 1,486
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgcounty
its a big bet.
what hands do you beat that bet it?
what are you going to do on the river if you call and he bets big, which he will do most of the time?
Your hand looks like what it is (not a hard hand to read).
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SO you are saying that I could never have 77-AA, KQs, KJs, AQ, AJ, 78s, 89s, 9Ts, TJs, all of which I would have played exactly the same way preflop and flop?
Last edited by jpsychlady; 07-12-2012 at 12:56 PM.
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07-12-2012, 03:53 PM
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#7
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veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 2,259
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
obviously you could have those hands.
but you don't.
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07-12-2012, 04:08 PM
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#8
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enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Min-raised in Purgatory.
Posts: 87
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
the hand is over here unless youre ready to pay off the river, no card can come for you that will best a flush, straight, or even a better two pair. a lot of times, esp live, loose players (or players that perceive themselves as a loose player through the eyes of their opponent) will bet big with a made hand in hopes of taking advantage of the rep. tough for me to say what i would do, id have to have a real-time feel for the scenario, but from what info we have im going to fold this one.
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07-13-2012, 01:20 AM
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#9
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grinder
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 477
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
I think u need to think about his line in 1 of a few different ways. A) he was l/c to set mine oop (common) & he was planning on stop&go the flop b/c he thinks that looks more fos & will get him paid. 2) his l/c range preflop is very wide to include all kinds of sc's & weird random hands. he is x/c the flop b/c this board is so low that it doesn't help the pfr (you) perceived range and he wants to out play you on turns & rivers by reverse floating you. 3) he may have l/c any AX hand and is sticky enough to not x/f flop (maybe he flopped a gutter) and now that he turned TPWK with a 3flush board he feels the need to protect his equity since he would hate to see you check back any 1heart hand. 4) he just has a flush
I think the key is(as I've heard some people call it) his inflection point will be on the river whereby he will take a dramatically different action with the different parts of his range. For example, if u call turn, his AX hands might blocker/value or check the river. His sets,flushes or otherwise nutted hands will probably shove and never check. Unfortunately his bluffs will probably also shove or give up & it's really impossible to know how much balls he has without more history or reads. I would think that it depends on what level thinker he is. If he is playing according to your perceived range than it appears as if you rarely if ever have greater than TPTK and mostly don't even have that...so that makes it a good turn card to 2 barrel you off the vast majority of your range assuming you peel turn but fold river with something like QhQc. If he's not on that level and he's playing straightforwardly thinking about his own cards than I think it's more of a fold based on the fact that he would have to expect you to check back this turn and so lead T/shove R is his only line he can take to get all monies in with his flushes & sets
For the above reason I disagree with your expectation that he'd go for a x/r on turn with a flush since he can't expect you to barrel that turn often with a made hand other than a flush yourself
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07-13-2012, 06:47 AM
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#10
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See my coaching listing
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: las vegas
Posts: 5,132
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
With all the variables of female / nitty / the size of your flop cbet / his check of the flush earlier, I would call this turn bet fairly quickly and act as best that i could that i am not folding my hand.
And fold to a big river bet.
I think the big cbet hurt us here and was unnecessary as well.
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07-13-2012, 06:30 PM
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#11
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,790
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
with no heart blockers i wouldn't bother w/the cbet
as played folllllld
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07-14-2012, 01:19 AM
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#12
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veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: depends
Posts: 3,179
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
first of all OP I don't know why you pay such particular attention villain being 'asian'(thread title, detailed description, etc).. villain sounds like a pro and asian pros don't play a particular style that non-asian pros don't employ. the only time you would EVER consider him being 'asian' as a factor is if he's a 50yo recreational gambling businessman..
secondly, a lot of the advice above doesn't cut to the chase, but I'll be direct: your cbet was bad. it's not necessarily as bad in a vacuum but in light of your post and the complete lack of reference to why you cbet, it is def. bad. against good players, cbet-bluffing without a plan is a sure way to burn money because:
1) when they do have it you've inflated the pot for them at your expense;
2) when they don't have it they could still play like they have it and you don't have anything to catch them with, and
3) cbetting without a plan also means you are not representing anything, which in this case means even when a good card for your hand hit you still didn't know what to do. if you want to bluff, bluff by representing something and be consistent with that representation the whole way through.
if you are not doing these things I don't think Aria's 5/10 is a game that would treat you too kindly over time.. also, hate to say this but some of the replies above are pretty superficial..
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07-14-2012, 05:00 AM
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#13
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enthusiast
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 96
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by 663366
first of all OP I don't know why you pay such particular attention villain being 'asian'(thread title, detailed description, etc).. villain sounds like a pro and asian pros don't play a particular style that non-asian pros don't employ. the only time you would EVER consider him being 'asian' as a factor is if he's a 50yo recreational gambling businessman..
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IMO young asian kids and young white kids play pretty similar but racial profiling is a pretty useful tool in poker. For example if vil in the OP was a young armo then the hand would be easy.
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07-14-2012, 06:10 AM
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#14
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grinder
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Huntington Hills
Posts: 462
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
Check flop.
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07-14-2012, 10:45 AM
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#15
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old hand
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: New England
Posts: 1,486
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Re: TPTK facing Asian Aggression 5/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by 663366
first of all OP I don't know why you pay such particular attention villain being 'asian'(thread title, detailed description, etc).. villain sounds like a pro and asian pros don't play a particular style that non-asian pros don't employ. the only time you would EVER consider him being 'asian' as a factor is if he's a 50yo recreational gambling businessman..
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Are you kidding or offended? And villain is def not a pro.
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