i see it all the time.especially at the bellagio and borgata.
sometimes the strategy talk is in depth and sometimes it's obvious to a decent player but not a bad one.
it's almost always amongst decent but not great regs who think the world revolves around poker, who don't talk to the fish at all, who aren't entertaining at all and don't understand where poker money come from.

Fish strat is more "he had x i should have folded" not worrying about hand ranges or "the flush hit, even if i raised the turn he would have called so i saved money" just awful results oriented nonsense.

Hell just a few nights ago in plo some guy check raised and called a river shove with 57 on a
queen 5 7 2 5 board in a terrible spot against a huge nit that was obviously no good.there was something like 150 in the pot going to the river and he lost about 1100.he left and 3 or 4 people then started saying what an easy fold it was- with 3 horror shows at the table.

just mind boggling.

The death of Bellagio 5-10 has been greatly exaggerated. Also, I don't think that talking strat at the table is so bad, especially if it's not a reg who starts it and even more so if it plays up the resultsy/fun/competitive aspects of poker instead of the technical aspects.

^ I really disagree. When another reg starts talking strat to me at the table, my eyes usually glaze over, and I just say something generic like, "idk man, I usually just throw chips in," or whatever. If two other players are doing it, I will usually find a funny/not so funny way of stopping it as well - "You have a pen? I'd like to take notes." "Do you give lessons?" Something like that...

This is one thing that actually makes my skin crawl at the table. For the love of everything, please stop doing it. I know the ego is strong as ****, but no one cares how smart you are. It's so terrible for poker. Every time we want to say some strategy bs, let's all agree to say something about the local sports team instead, deal?

Well you would be completely wrong and it almost never has the effect you mention.

Talking strat on table is generally bad of course. But often a fish wants to talk strategy so then I purposefully give them bad advice and use it to take more of their money. All of those bellagio 5/t nit regulars are fish so that's how I would handle it

And funny thing is I've never actually seen a good player want to talk strat at table. Just fish. So I don't know what u guys are worried about.

If you're beating 5/10 for $14/hr over an entire year, then you're practically not making a profit because it doesn't matter where you live in a city that offers 5/10, ($14/hr x 130 hours a month) does not cover your rent/food/insurance/basic shopping/emergencies/couple of nights out on the town/movies with friends.

So instead of figuring out how to beat 5/10 for a much higher rate(something you haven't been able to do after playing it for 3 years in the same room), you'd almost certainly be much better off moving down to 2/5 and see if you can beat it for $40-60/hour, be one of the best players at that level.

Because if you can't beat 2/5 for that amount, then you definitely shouldn't be playing 5/10. And if you can beat 2/5 for that amount, then you certainly should be playing 2/5 instead of 5/10 for $14/hour.

I cringe a little when regs start discussing strat but it's amazing what these guys are willing to give away about their thought processes at a poker table.

Exactly, that's why I don't mind it that much.

I think op will be hard pressed to beat 2/5 for 50/hr if he's only beating 5/t for 15. There's just not a big enough skill level difference. Probably would end up beating 2/5 for 15 as well. Op should be looking for a job and just play 5/t recreationally, or figure out how to improve his game. Moving down in limits rarely solves any problems.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't mention any effect. Just said it's "not so bad." Maybe people find it patronizing and offputting, even if you're saying **** like "i put him on second pair and he called anyway" instead of an in-depth discussion of range construction, sizing, balance, whatever.


How many times has this backfired, ie they ignore you or tell you to stfu, then keep talking strat? I hope it's often!

You're under no obligation to talk strat; if you want to say "i just throw the chips in," or nothing at all, that's all well and good. But intruding into others' conversations to put (at least) one of them down makes you seem like the one with the ego problem. Like you said yourself, nobody cares how smart you are. Maybe the people you want in the game think it's fun to talk strat and won't stop playing poorly no matter what they say/hear at the table. Maybe they will stop playing when some rude prick snaps at them for trying to talk about the game they're currently playing. Making people feel unwelcome at the table is so terrible for poker.

Also, people who talk heaps of strat at the table are giving away bits and pieces of a blueprint on how to beat them. Seems self-defeating to shame them into stopping.

anyone in this thread is capable of turning a big fish into a small loser in a matter of hours imo. by talking any kind of strat you are giving lessons for free.

don't delude yourself into think you can maintain a high hourly vs all semi comp regs in a 100bb 5/10 game. it takes big losers to have big win rates in live poker

lol, WAT. It never happens actually. It's important to do it in a sarcastic, half-serious manner, but usually people will know that they shouldn't be doing it. I'm referring to things like someone critiquing someone's sizing, or making it clear they think something was a big error or whatever. Things like that should be stopped imo. I'm not talking about someone saying good bet, or good card to bluff. I agree things like that are fun and harmless.

Audibly constructing ranges, and trying to hold highly technical conversations at the table are HORRIBLE for business for multiple reasons. If this isn't obvious to you, then we will have to agree to disagree, but I encourage you to give it some more thought.

I actually don't mind talking strategy at the table but always with a fish never a reg, don't use poker terminology (equity range anything that's sounds Mathematical), and use fish Logic as much as possible . For example "I put him exactly on pocket sevens" or "if I call the turn I have to call the river ). I dont think its bad for the game but I could be wrong .

Two regs talking about ranges and ev is horrible

I find it refreshing to hear some believable numbers posted from the op.

$50 per hour for a couple of years and then $14 per hour now, seems very realistic and honest -refreshing.
Most full time players aren't *really* full time players, and a lot of them lie about their win rate.

I played full time for quite a few years, several years full time at the Bell 2/5 and 5/10 game, and occasionally high stakes.
New *regulars* would come & go every few months, they all had about the same story; "I'm playing full time and I'm making "unbelievable per hour win rate" and plan to do this for awhile. Some would last 2-3 months, occasionally one would last a year or more. I only know of a handful of full time-year around players that stick with it for more than couple of years.
The few that do play full time year-around and have for years, have some serious personal issues in their lives, often times very sad and pathetic.

As a practical matter, playing low stakes poker for a living is a terrible dead-end job.

1)From an emotional point of view the up's and down's of the money, tied with the emotional highs & lows takes a toll on even the toughest people.

2) There is only 1 of you, only 24 hours in day, and the highest win rates are not sustainable, so even "good players" are limited and have a cap on their earning potential.

3) At some point EVERY low stakes long-term players ask's themselves this question: "is it worth it?"

Sitting around for long period of time seeing my health go to crap...is it worth it? Can I make the same or more money doing something else? Is this job of playing poker full time fullfilling to me? Do I have other options? Am I scared of failure in some other occupation? Is it worth it?

****Most, the overwhelming majority of full time year-around low stakes players have something negative in their life that traps them in this lifestyle.
Some common attributes include, but not limited to:

*convicted felon -can't get a real job somewhere else

* immature -young people that have never really done anything for themselves/haven't built a business/ never worked hard w/ dedication for an occupation/don't own a house/haven't been a responsible adult parent

*failure at other aspects of life -failed relationships, failed jobs, emotional trouble w/ self esteem

* old fashion lazy - unrealistic concept of an easy life, twisted thoughts of grandeur, no business sense or basic financial investing knowledge

I think we have some common ground here. I agree technical poker discussion at the table is bad for business. I just don't think it's worth sarcastically intruding into people's conversations to stop it (unless they're both regs who you know won't quit and you're trying to needle them into playing worse against you) because that intrusion can make people feel awkward and unwelcome at the table.

Your totally dead on with this post. I've been saying it over and over but it is a fools errand to try to make a living at live ssnl (below 10/20). Even at 10/20 I would say it is usually dubious for most, and takes a fairly unusual circumstance for it to be the right move. 25/50+ sure it's worth it but that's when the games get tough and are mostly pros, so you better bring talent.

And to be honest that talent to succeed at high stakes big bet games is rare and 99.9% of poker players don't have it. Rare enough you should never assume you have it until results prove so. This means poker for pretty much everybody should be a recreational activity not a new career path because you busted up that juicy 5/10 game for 3k last night.

this times x 1,000,000. I saw someone explain to a fish why calling 1/4 of their stack is bad to try to spike a set even though he knew I had aces. Now he'll fold unless getting correct implied odds forever. GJ ******s.

Of course I was referring to regs/headphone types, and it's not intruding on a conversation when it's loud enough for everyone at the table to easily hear what you are saying. Would never do anything, but laugh and smile with rec/action players.

I've seen this post a lot on here, and while I agree that young people who aren't sure of their path should be discouraged from choosing poker as an easy living, I don't agree that it is a dead-end job that only people who can't do better should take.

People are constantly having to make trade-off decisions in life. One big trade-off that we all weigh is that of stability vs freedom. It seems that a large majority of the population values stability of freedom. We like security, we like consistency, reliability...there are obviously some that genuinely prefer freedom. I had a 9-5 that paid relatively well. I even had a decent amount of flexibility in my schedule. While I enjoyed the intellectual challenges of the job, I eventually become less and less satisfied. I would have to consistently pass on travel plans, or interesting events due to my responsibilities at work. For me, I felt that I was working my life away. Spending 80% of your days tied to an office gets compounded further when you can't even maximize your time away from the office because you have to stay close enough to be back on Monday.

For me personally, being able to travel abroad whenever I want, and still have work at most locations has huge value. I would probably value the freedom that poker gives me at a minimum of 250k/year, and honestly it's probably more than that. So making 40+/hr or whatever, playing for 25-30 hours a week is actually a great option for me. I'm not maximizing my USD inflow, but I am maximizing my life utility. Other people will have different utility functions, and a majority probably value stability high enough to make a "real job" more appealing than poker. If all one cares about is making the most money in the easiest way possible, then yes, poker is a terrible option.

Some very good and thought provoking comments in this thread that I appreciate.

As an extension to my comments about young people playing low stakes for a living, let me just add that I see nothing wrong with this. During a transition period.

So here's the scenario; Young Joe Blow lives in tim-buk-too, has graduated highschool, maybe some local college, and has worked various jobs while trying to figure out his role in life as an adult. Young Joe has a sharp mind, good people skills, and an adventurous spirit. Joe goes to Las Vegas to play cards for a living.
Joe is a small business man in the simplest form, he invest X amount of money and figures to get back more money than he invested. Everytime he enters a pot, makes some investments in the form of a bet, and ultimately moves on to the next hand a formal business cycle has been completed in 5 minutes. Rinse and repeat.

To me this is merely another form of a transition time for young people. Young Joe can play poker for awhile, no set time frame and maybe travel abroad occasionally, everyone is different and everyone has a different learning curve.

However, at some point Joe will realize that playing low stakes poker is a dead end. There are only 24 hours in the day and only 1 of him. His earning potential is capped at about $50k to 70k per year maximum, with no guarantee of this -but the very real possibility of breaking even or losing money.
Now add in the lifestyle of a poker player that has many distractions and temptations that even the most disciplined person can get caught-up in, top of the list include: booze, drugs, wild women, living beyond your means, ect.....
Joe has to go work everyday just for the opportunity to try to make income. Specifically LOW STAKES poker is a nasty and painful business, one of the few occupations where you can do everything right and still be a loser. After awhile Joe decides to do something else with his life

And FWIW, I'm open minded to ALL forms of work. Make no mistake, we all need to make money to live. To some folks this may mean a 9-5 job, to others it may trying various different business idea's on their own. Quality of life to each of us as an individual is very important!

My experience with low stakes poker for a long term occupation is synonymous with a slow & painful death of getting poked in the eye w/ a rusty spoon over and over....

You forgot the two biggest distractions/temptations: The pit and sports betting. I've watched those two things bankrupt many a professional player.

Spot on, especially regarding the Bellagio regs.

As a European fun player who goes to Vegas/LA a couple of times a year... last few visits the Bellagio 5/T game have been sooo boring for the reasons mentioned many times in this thread.

That being said, so far I've still tried it every trip as I do realize games differ day to day - but my stay in the Bellagio games has gotten shorter and shorter.

Now compare that to f.e. the Bike 5/T game or even the Venetian one (whenever those run)... entirely different world in my experience. I'd like to think I'm not the biggest whale you see at the tables, but given the fact I tend to keep drinking (vacation and all), making me stay there in fact gets more and more ++EV for you guys every minute

Obviously, lol sample size / whatever, but if its always the same over a number of visits, the trend is clear...

What's also not yet mentioned is........ there are far better places in the world to grind 5/10 than at a room where the floor is corrupt and treats you as the enemy, where people constantly bump into your chairs, etc etc.

From my experience (150+ weekday hours over the past year), the Bellagio 5/T is soft but reg heavy. From what I have seen, many of the regs are mediocre nut peddling nits. Even though I will come across as as complete jerk, I have to believe that OP is one of these mediocre pros.

Mediocre or not, $14/hr is unacceptable anyway you cut it. I would expect mediocre 1/3 grinders to be able to make $14/hr in most markets. You made under $25k in the past year. I know players that have made $30k+ in a single month of 2/5 $500 cap. I know players that make six figures every year playing 2/5 $500 cap and I suspect mediocre players in various casinos across the country make more than $14/hr just peddling the nuts at 2/5. If an option, I would highly recommend you consider moving to another big market to play 2/5 and 5/T (and pick and choose your games based on lineups). You should be able to make more money in either game than you are now.

I kind of agree with spino1i when he called the game small stakes. I don't consider 5/T to be small stakes in general but the Bellagio 5/T plays pretty damn small as far as 5/T games go. For one you have the $1500 cap, and you also have a lot of 3x opens and players just folding hand after hand.

It can't help that at times 10/20+ regs often sit in that 5/T game. From my limited experience there seem to be some pretty tough players in that player pool.

^LOLOLOLOLOL @ $30k+ in a month at 2/5 $500 cap. That's trolling more than spino1i.

Look, if you're running at $14/hr over a year at 5/10 I think there is definitely something wrong with your game. Maybe something like $30/hr could be just variance but I have a really hard time believing $14/hr isn't from a lot of bad play.