Hero has completed SB with K9hh in a 5-way pot

Flop ($25): KT3club:
Hero bets $15, call, call, call

Turn ($85): 9
Hero ?

Callers have roughly $300-500 stacks... With 3 people calling, I think atleast 1 person is likely to have QJ here..

a) Bet small/fold --- Expecting Vs to play fairly straightforward
b) Check/call small bet --- To keep pot in control but risk getting sucked out on
c) Check/fold to big bet --- As their hand becomes face-up
d) Bomb the turn --- Not sure if I like this

Bet $45-$65 (leaning on the higher side) and reevaluate the river. Yes, the QJ got there, but it's a spot where it's far better to bet than it is to x/c.

A case could be made for pot control to try and showdown cheaply, but it's a weak case considering the fact that it's a 4-way pot. Any , Q, J, A, 8, 7 or 6 makes your hand very vulnerable against this many opponents, and this assumes that they all check behind and take a free river.

Bet $50-$55. Lots of value to be had and if someone raises we can evaluate, and lean towards folding if that happens. But there really is tons of value so i kinda hate checking

Bet folding turn I think
Checking most rivers looking to call on all blanks, evaluate scare cards to possibly fold on.

Bet/fold $50-60.

Why not bet/fold instead? Aren't we ahead on blank rivers if nobody raised flop/turn?

Because getting raised after betting into villain narrows their hands to all hands that beat you. Worse hands aren't calling you, but checking over to them gives them a chance to bluff or to bet a 2nd best hand that would otherwise fold to a river bet.

In many spots betting OOP with the intention to fold to any raise is worse than check-calling. This hand has decent show down equity. Bet-folding IP is more useful, since all but the trickiest of players will check-raise bluff rivers or x/r with 2nd/3rd best to get better hands to fold.

I like B/F $45-50.

There are 16 combos of QJ, but there are a similar amount of KX/T9/FD/Pair FD combos. Since the opponents are straight-forward I'd expect KT/sets to raise flop. As such, fold to a turn raise.

So you're always check/calling river if someone bets pot?

I'd lean towards c/f turn or c/c depending on sizing instead of b/f. What's the worst hand anyone is betting on the turn that limped in pre? Feels like you're always beat if one or more people put more money in and there's a ton of bad river cards while you're still OOP to the whole table...seems like someone always has QJ here and it usually goes bet -> call -> raise and now you have to fold.

How about ck-f flop

Depends on the size of the pot. And the player obv.

There's too much that can call a turn bet that we beat to check. If someone can beat us, they'll raise and let us know. The real mistake in this hand was betting the flop from the SB with TPWK into 5 people.

Yea this

Why did it take like 10 comments for someone to realize how bad betting flop is? As Played b/f, b/f. Bet turn BIG and decide how much based on river.

I think most did realize it was bad, but they were focusing on the turn as played.

I feel ya. I just think it's important to address the action street by street no matter what OP asks. OP didn't think to even question his flop decision which is a pretty big flaw.

(grunch)

Expecting QJ is a little mubsy. It's certainly possible, but "expecting"? No. A priori, there's a 1.2% chance anyone was even dealt QJ (16 QJ combos / 1326 total combos). Call it roughly 11% for the other 9 players 1.2% * 9 isn't quite right, but it's close). It goes up since QJ is more likely to be played than, say, 72o but not to over 50%.

At most, you're losing to 7 set combos (1 KK, 3 TT, 3 33), 6 2P combos (2K * 3 T), and 16 QJ combos. You chop with 4 K9 combos. You're ahead of everything else. OTOH, there are likely around 25 flush draws as well as TP hands.

OTT, I want to bet enough to make flush draws unprofitable, while still getting the call. I also want calls from lower 2P and even TP.

As played, I'd probably bet/eval 70 OTT. If that gets raised, I'm seriously considering a fold unless I have a read that raiser can do that with a draw or otherwise light. I'm not checking vs. 3 V's on a wet board, while bombing tends to fold out the hands I want to call, but presenting frankincense and myrrh to those that have me beat.

I would check this flop. Distinctly marginal hand, multi-way, OOP. Blechh. If flop is checked around (or I spike a lovely 9 OTT), I might get involved, but otherwise I'm aggressively uninterested in giving these people my money.

OOP
+ 5-way
+ marginal hand
= Looking to fold

I understand we're OOP 5-handed, but I figured most players were terrible and played fairly face up, so there was a lot of value to be had from Tx, worse Kx and all their draws they'd never fold. I know we're bloating the pot OOP, so yeah check/calling does seem superior.

Would you say the same thing about this other hand below with TPWK I played yesterday as the preflop aggressor?

Hero opens $15 KThh in HJ, bad player on BTN ($115) calls, SB and BB call

Flop ($60): K83
Check, Check, Hero bets $20, BTN shoves, fold, fold, Hero calls and loses to KQ

Second hand is entirely different, but its still very basic stuff...what does V jam for $100 over a pfr cbet in K83r that makes you want to call $80 more?

? Betting flop is best play on draw heavy board with top pair.

Obv bet the turn

This is close to irrelevant maths as people aren't continuing on the flop with all their preflop holdings. The fact that he's been called in 3 spots narrows their ranges (which includes a decent chunk of QJ).

So is the consensus to just check/fold this flop?? If so, why are we even completing in SB?

Okay so I played another hand where I played TP passively.. here are results:


6-handed, loose UTG (38bb) and UTG+1 (80bb) limp, folds to Hero (100bb) in BB who checks with QJ

Flop (3.5bb): J72
Hero checks, UTG bets 3bb, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls

Turn (12.5bb): 3
Hero checks, UTG bets 9bb, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds

River (39.5bb): 9
UTG shoves 25bb, UTG+1 calls

Both split the pot with J6hh and J6o respectively...

Ewww QJ on J73s is not the same as K9 on KTxs. While it's also a mid-strength hand with little dynamic equity, your opponents continuing ranges are generally far weaker, and ck-c or betting become reasonable options.