ITT we berate cl0r0x70 - Page 2 - Medium High Stakes Full Ring Poker

boredatheist2 · 07-26-2012, 05:37 AM

Preflop, I think fold > raise > call.

On the flop, I'd bet $50.

As played, I'd fold to the check-raise.

As played, I'd fold to the turn shove.

His line is weird, sure, and it's hard to give him credit for any value hands. Why would he play AQ+ so aggressively?

But on the other hand, it's almost impossible to give him credit for any bluffing hands. You think he's turning AK into a bluff here? Trying to get an old donkey to fold his trips with this line? I think that's super super rare.

Live + Tourney Player + Huge Bets = He Has It. Live 5/10 players are so passive and uncreative that it skews their spaz-out ranges significantly towards the nuts.

crsseyed · 07-26-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cl0r0x70

Mostly professionals......... Tons of 3betting and overall excellent aggressive play. Zero limped pots.

I'm probably seen as the mark at the table, due mainly to age and appearance. That's cool by me...........

Villain to my immediate right is a young pro just back from WSOP, $2500. He's been active preflop, 3 betting his fair share, but I haven't seen him too far out of line post flop. He is certainly capable of making moves.......
.

With above and pot size, I think we need to call this. If villain(professional back from WSOP) hasn't been out of line postflop yet doesn't it make it more likely you're ahead?

VvsKing · 07-26-2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HustlerLA

def calling. his line only gets value from coolered hands that would get stacked to a normal line. I call and if Im beat I berate him for taking such a horrid line.

If he views OP as passive/nit, and when he calls his c/r on flop puts op on KQ/QJ/any Queen...and he has AQ/33, wouldn't a polarizing/leveling jam be okay? Or still better to play the hand normal...

too eazy · 07-26-2012, 06:28 PM

I can't imagine him ever taking this line ever for value with a lock hand.

Trying to put you on a range from his perspective I'd think you have either a nut hand or 99-JJ type of thing a lot here I guess?

I think if I were villain and competent I'm expecting you to almost always fold Q9 QT, and sometimes fold QJ KQ, and probably never fold AQ... and so... I can't imagine this being a great value line either.

Just really strange, but I probably call without more solid info/reads as you have the effective 3rd nuts and his line isn't standard.

jrr63 · 07-26-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote from OP: <He might see me as loose pre and perhaps stationey post. He's seen me make some hero calls and multi-street bluffs. Hard to say overall respect level.>

If this is close to real reflection of how V views hero, V would not necessarily expect hero to fold a queen it seems to me.

tmckendry · 07-26-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrr63

Quote from OP: <He might see me as loose pre and perhaps stationey post. He's seen me make some hero calls and multi-street bluffs. Hard to say overall respect level.>

If this is close to real reflection of how V views hero, V would not necessarily expect hero to fold a queen it seems to me.

This.

Good fold imo.

For V's line to be +EV in his eyes, he has to assume were folding a queen 75%.. seems unrealistic.

mg0698 · 07-26-2012, 08:51 PM

But if Op is a station then why does villian have to OB 2x pot jam to get him to call with only Qx, when he can just bet normal and shove river comfortably making OP call wider. It just doesn't make sense why someone who is considered really good will take this line over bet bet vs a station.

jrr63 · 07-26-2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg0698

But if Op is a station then why does villian have to OB 2x pot jam to get him to call with only Qx, when he can just bet normal and shove river comfortably making OP call wider. It just doesn't make sense why someone who is considered really good will take this line over bet bet vs a station.

I guess one reason might be to get all the money in when you are pretty sure you are ahead and also have reason to believe your overbet may get called by worse.

mg0698 · 07-26-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrr63

I guess one reason might be to get all the money in when you are pretty sure you are ahead and also have reason to believe your overbet may get called by worse.

over bet jamming 2x pot on turn is just basically asking to cooler someone all hands that call the turn are most likely calling turn and river bets, SO just imo I think you only get the top of there range to call by overbet jamming 2x pot, For god sake OP folded KQ so surely it cant be a good line for value, which is why I would call.

jrr63 · 07-26-2012, 09:31 PM

I don't disagree with you actually - if I personally had a big hand there as V (which is AQ or 33) I would not overbet unless I was pretty certain V would call with KQ or worse. But like I said, V may have thought hero would hero call with KQ, QJ, etc.

plz fold · 07-26-2012, 10:13 PM

whenever i see hands go down like this against ppl who i think are competent tourney pros they show up with hands like QJ a lot and then say they were bluffing if the other guy folds face up, if they get called and lose they say "what took u so long to call". this guy is probably just clicking buttons with a Q and the only hands u realistically lose to that he would play this way is AQ/33 so cawl.

HustlerLA · 07-28-2012, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VvsKing

If he views OP as passive/nit, and when he calls his c/r on flop puts op on KQ/QJ/any Queen...and he has AQ/33, wouldn't a polarizing/leveling jam be okay? Or still better to play the hand normal...

The thing is that if he sees that villain has exactly QX here then the overbet might be best by the slightest margin. But hero has a range that bet/calls flop and I doubt its entirely QX and 33. So villains overbet is really bad for value vs hero's overall range because the weaker portions will be folded out.
Not to mention a QX hand isn't folding to a normal line and sizing.

On turn the pot is $1065 and there is $2k left in stacks. A turn bet of $675 and river bet of $1325 will get the job done pretty easily and i think QX will stack off at the exact same rate as the overbet. But this line has the added incentive of a possible bluff raise by Hero with floats and/or a possible lighter hero call on turn with a hand like 88. In summary there's only upside to the more traditional line; which is already non traditional due to the c/r as PFR.

mike dexter · 07-29-2012, 05:46 AM

I think he spazzed and you owned him.

rakes · 07-29-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cl0r0x70

7 handed 5/10NL underground game. Toughest table I've played at in probably a few years. Mostly professionals, with the exception of one reg business guy who normally plays 300/600 rotation. Guy to my immediate left just binked a WSOP 6max bracelet. Tons of 3betting and overall excellent aggressive play. Zero limped pots.

Table is deep with several 5k+ stacks.

I'm probably seen as the mark at the table, due mainly to age and appearance. That's cool by me. Been running hot and sitting with ~6k. Winning, loose image.

Villain to my immediate right is a young pro just back from WSOP, $2500. He's been active preflop, 3 betting his fair share, but I haven't seen him too far out of line post flop. He is certainly capable of making moves. He might see me as loose pre and perhaps stationey post. He's seen me make some hero calls and multi-street bluffs. Hard to say overall respect level.

Two limps, villain makes it 40 in cutoff, I call on button with KQo, two other callers, pot is 165.

Flop QQ3 ($165)
Checks to me. I bet $120.
Folds to villain who c/r to $450.
I debate between raising and calling, and call after about 10 seconds

Turn QQ37 ($1065)
Villain announces all-in.
Hero folds.

Also I probably call here because full houses are hard to make

dmkai3 · 07-29-2012, 11:27 AM

If he's a young pro I think he'd realize he's burning money bluffing here. If he wanted to bluff he'd realize his fold equity is much better if he just makes normal sizing and does a 3 street bluff instead of 2 streets. Combine that with your image being stationy and I think your fold is fine.