I'm posting in MHFR because 95% of my posts have been in here. Mods, feel free to move.

While I am fortunate enough to have made meaningful money from this game, I am neither as good nor as experienced as top players here. So I will not try to tell you how to beat this game.

Instead, what I will tell you is how poker has made my life better and how it has made my life worse. I also want to compare poker to other careers, and talk about exit plans. I wrote this to reflect for myself, but maybe it will resonate with some of you.

Cliff's: lost money playing poker. won money playing poker. have not achieved nirvana playing poker. tried a few careers, might try a few more. learned a lot. not yet busto.

TL;DR:
I started playing for penny stakes in a home game in early 2006. I went to Vegas for the first time in mid 2006, and started playing the $2/3 game at the Bike regularly later the same year. I had read a couple poker books and I had a very strong probability/statistics background. However, I had zero understanding of the emotional aspects of the game.

I played poker because I wanted to make money. In 2006 I was a mostly-broke college junior disillusioned with my major and scared about job prospects. I viewed poker as a tax on stupid people. Unfortunately what I failed to understand was that there are many more types of intelligence other than analytical/mathematical. So it ended up being a tax on the stupid me.

Tilt makes you do some things you wouldn't do rationally. There was that one night when I drove around the LA area trying to get cashback from grocery stores, $60 at a time, because I went over my ATM withdrawal limit. I've also paid something like $1k lifetime in ATM and cash advance fees. But those things are pretty harmless. The harmful things are that while I was playing poker, I neglected my sleep schedule, my physical health, and my friends. Poor sleep schedule and poor relationships with friends lead to playing more poker, which leads to yet worse sleep schedule and worse relationships with friends...

At the end of 2006 I tilted off $2k that I did not really have. I took a loan from my girlfriend and quit. I think I was down $3k over 500 hours in 2006, though I didn't keep records. I graduated in March 2007. I found part-time work tutoring, then teaching at a summer camp. I sent about 100 job applications for a full time high school teaching position for the 2007-2008 school year, and was fortunate enough to get an offer. It was for $33k/year, in a town I had never been to, several hundred miles from anyone I knew. Teaching was my first love, and I sometimes I hope it will be my last. There are a few teaching jobs where you have tremendous impact and enjoy nearly every minute of your day. You get to figure out what you want to teach, how you can teach it, and go out and do it. It's hard work (I probably averaged 50-60 hour weeks) but there is enough time to sleep, and usually enough off time to not burn out. From what I can tell, 95% of teaching jobs are not like this - you need to find a school that values teacher freedom and where your colleagues don't abuse it.

I am very shy, and don't easily make friends. I did not succeed at meeting people I liked in a new town. My girlfriend of three years broke up with me, and my mental health suffered greatly as a result. I got a different teaching job for the 2008-2009 school year, in a town where I had friends. It was a one year maternity replacement position. The job wasn't as great as the year before but it was still quite good. I would have liked to keep it, but there was no opening after the teacher on maternity leave came back.

I played poker occasionally in 2008. Most of it was at 2/5 over brief trips to Vegas, a bit was online. I was still pretty bad at poker, but I ran better. I was up about $5k on the year over 500 hours. This includes losing $5k in a tilt induced 5/10 session. Large losing sessions are still a leak for me - I definitely play worse until I remember to quit. There are also some pretty strong detrimental effects on my mental health. It's weird - I dealt mostly ok with a 500 hour losing stretch, and I dealt mostly ok with a 2500bb downswing, but I feel very bad about any large losing session. I've always taken a week+ off poker after such events; I'm very aware that I can't play anything close to decent for a long time.

I couldn't get another teaching job for 2009-2010. I started on a masters program with the intent to drop out as soon as possible once I found a job. I had saved up some money from previous two years working and the $5k from poker. I went from having ~$20k to being $20k in debt (to my mom) over two years of grad school. I kept looking for teaching jobs throughout grad school, but I did not end up getting one. Slowly my job search expanded; in February 2011 I started a job as a software engineer. (I had some programming experience from both undergrad and grad school, but mostly I got hired as a generalist smart person.) I also finished my masters since it was just a few more months; it was pretty intense to attempt to have a difficult job and finish school at the same time and I have a lot of respect for the people who have to do this for long periods of time.

Software engineering paid better than teaching by about a factor of 2. I found my first 18 months of work fairly interesting. I wasn't sure about the value I was adding to the world; it seemed like some of my work seemed really useful while some of it just helped executives pad their pockets. After 18 months I was going to be transfered from an engineering-oriented project to an advertising-oriented project, and I really didn't like the thought of that. I wasn't sure about the future of the company I was working for, either.

At the same time I had also started playing poker again, and ran really good. I think I won something like 16/20 2/5 sessions followed by 16/20 5/10 sessions. As I was winning, I also spent a lot more time learning about the game; my guess is that I went from a +$10/hr-ev 2/5 player to a +$30/hr-ev 5/10 player over this stretch.

So in September 2012 I quit, with $20k to my name. My primary goal in quitting was actually not to play poker - I wanted to travel. At the same time, I figured I'd play some poker and see how it goes.

I ran good in both poker and life for the next 12 months. Specifically:
-I spent 1-4 weeks with ~15 different friends throughout US and Europe, learning about what they were doing in life.
-I learned to play poker to where it became a reasonable income source. By September 2013, I was probably a ~$60/hr-ev 5/10 player and was probably +ev at most NL holdem games at 10/25-25/50.
-I ran above ev at poker such that it funded all my travels and living expenses, and gave me a comfortable savings margin.

At the same time, around late October 2013, I started to realize two things
1. Poker will not make me rich - I was not rapidly improving anymore, and I would never be good enough to consistently average $200k+ years.
2. I did not want to play poker for $100k years, and probably even $150k years -- it would mean I would need to do it for >10 years to achieve financial independence, even if somehow poker persisted in the same state for >10 years. I don't have enough interest in poker to devote 1/3+ of my adult life to it.
3. Poker is mostly a dead-end socially. In particular, given how much time I spend working, it is pretty important for the introverted me to have a workplace where I enjoy socializing. I have met some very interesting people playing poker, but for the most part the socialization is a lot less meaningful than what I've had in other jobs.

So I decided to screw income generation for a while. I self-studied data science and some more computer science for three months, and thought about various jobs I could apply for. Unfortunately I got ill for January-May 2014. I was extremely lucky to have health insurance and a very comfortable amount of savings to get me through it. By May my finances were not looking nearly as comfortable due to the medical expenses and 8 months of burn, so I played poker for another 3 months for very long hours and fortunately continued to run very good.

In August I started a data/software job at a startup (which I actually found out about over a poker game). It is a lot more difficult than poker, both intellectually and emotionally -- mostly due to the sheer amount of work involved. The annual pay is similar but I need to work a lot more hours than I was putting into poker. At the same time, like most jobs, it is certainly more rewarding -- my work has a pretty visible impact. It's not as clear cut as teaching, but I also don't have to look for that elusive 5% teaching job - especially difficult since my teaching qualifications are not stellar on paper. I teach at a weekend program and volunteer at a local high school for a day every other week, although I might have to cut back some due to the intensity of my work.

I thought I might keep playing poker on some weekends, purely for financial reasons. However, both the fact that I am working very long hours and the fact that it is difficult to stay sharp at poker at a playing frequency of < 1/week means that I'm not really sure this is a good idea. A part of me looks at three years of 100k income and thinks "this has to be a great investment" but another part of me remembers that first I'm pretty sure I ran above ev, and second that the tolls on both my time and my mental health may not be worth the potential income.

The startup world, too, is probably too draining on time and mental health to stay in for longer than a few years. Eventually I will either need many breaks, or to switch to a less draining long-term career. But for now it's an experience (especially observing what-it-takes-to-run-a-business), and I am a sucker for experiences. Also it feels good to build things.

Thanks for sharing. Seems even the guys making decent money these days are looking for a way out.

We have a lot in common wrt mentality of the game. You are much more of a veteran than me though and also significantly better player from what I see in strat.

Have you ever considered coaching? It could be the bridge between your love for teaching and not wanting to ride the variance train at 3am in some dingy room anymore.

It could also keep your connection to the game alive and generate steady side income.

Good post. Glad you "got out." Mind expanding on/explaining the mental health issues you experienced playing lots of hours? It sounds like you ran pretty good overall, so was it just a morality thing (hustling people)? Was it a schedule thing (late hours being inherently depressing)? Was it the stress of always having to make crucial/impactful decisions? The losses (even though you won way more often)? The environment? Etc.

Also, what specifically did you notice wrt changes in your mental health (depression, anger, apathy, etc)?

Thx

Your post is an excellent case to be made for "why not both?".

I remember reading in a Sklansky book that he said that playing full time was completely dead end and the most success would not come in the form of poker full time; but the balance between a real job and poker as supplementary income. I view my time playing poker as an incredible investment, because even though I am a career oriented working accountant now; the fact is you can put me in any NLHE game and I would be able to beat 95% of them. This is an excellent tool to have so that by the time I am in my 40's; I could have income from my job, investing/other avenues, and possibly NLHE. The ability to have this for the rest of your life is immeasurable; consider that in your looking back mindset.

DGAF; I really hope sometime sooner or later you pursue other interests (while still playing poker). I feel like with everything I have learned from your story, you could absolutely make it in the real world and probably find a way to crush.

Great post OP, best of luck!

Thanks for the compliments. I don't think I have enough time/inclination to coach but I'll shoot you a note.

I don't love hustling but I do it and deal with it. Actually one of the reasons I ran good is because of some very specific hustling (I can attribute probably like 20% of my lifetime poker earnings to two specific fish). I do usually need a week off anytime after a $10k+ loss -- and it's not like I won "way" more often. I've only won 62% of sessions since 2011. But I can get over that. (I could also play lower but the lower income ceiling makes that unappealing.)

So to answer your question, here's the biggest mental health threat I see for myself with poker right now:

My relationships with other people who play poker are not very close. This is very intentional so that a)I don't have a problem taking their money, and b)poker players are not exactly the most trustworthy bunch. I am introverted, and if I am playing poker for a lot of hours, I don't have time/energy to establish solid social relationships outside of poker (especially because I keep odd hours due to poker). This is not an acute problem, but over time it leads to a lot of loneliness and depression. I did still have friends outside of poker but the amount and quality of time I spent with them gradually went down.

Somewhat related, the thing that does bother me about morality is that there isn't very much collaboration in poker. A lot of times at jobs you are aligned in your goals with coworkers in making something happen that fits both of your visions and ideas of a better world. In poker there is not much room for that.

I never got angry, but I've been pretty seriously depressed and apathetic.

The "why not both" at the same time is because I am not yet sure that I can beat 10/20+ without playing/studying on a regular basis, and I don't think the money at 5/10 is enough for me to justify the time spent.

But I agree 100% with your point that poker is a very solid fallback option, (especially for being in between jobs/careers). The amount of commitment necessary to get back in the game is not that huge, the pay is decent, and the somewhat flexible hours and being able to quit at short notice is great.

Thanks for the post, very interesting stuff

how does poker fit into your dumb life?

I appreciate what you're saying here about the "the biggest mental health threat" with regard to poker. It certainly is difficult to form meaningful social relations with other players, since poker kind of functions like a "black economy." But does this mean we shouldn't try? There are hustlers, untrustworthy and deluded people in other industries, where bankruptcy and bad debt are a part of business life, but isn't this just a hazard we must learn to accept? One the one hand, you're right in saying the fact that I can't develop trustworthy relationships in the poker community is a significant reason not to stay within the industry. On the other hand, you might say that you didn't devote sufficient time and effort in developing this aspect of your poker life, especially as you acknowledge it as a weakness, given your introspective nature.

Yeah, I agree with this assessment; thanks.

Here is an excerpt from a PM sent to a young up and coming player, who I'm sure you'll be seeing in the 10-20 games at some point:

"I've never regretted being a gambler and truthfully I think starting out that way eventually made me more successful in the consulting/contracting business (more willing to take risks than some colleagues/competitors, but trying to take positive ev risks rather than just stabbing around). As for the scammers that you run into in gambling - they are there for sure but there are just as many low lifes in the business world who are trying to get over on you. You just have to be careful who you get close to, but there are a lot of guys I know in poker who are far more reliable and "stand up" than most any "straight world" guys you'll run into.

There's a an old science fiction story called the "Down Bound Train" about a gambler who came across a watch fairly early in life that would stop time, freezing his current reality for eternity, whenever he wanted to. Throughout his life he had several high points, but never found just the right time. Then after he died he found himself on the "down bound train" with a crew of gamblers, drunks, whores, etc. he decided he'd found the right time and pulled the plug. He figured that's how he'd want to spend eternity, surrounded by kindred spirits". And that's kind of how I feel - rather hang around with a bunch of poker players for eternity than a bunch of straight "good christian" citizens"

So in summary it's true there are a lot of folks you encounter in poker (or any form of gambling) that are not anyone you'd want to bring home, but IME there are quite a few that have become very good friends over the years.

thanks for posting op

i'm similar to you in regards to how your relationships with other ppl who play poker not being very close. I'm friendly with a ton of guys in the la area but not really "friends" with any of them (as in we don't hangout outside of poker, maybe a vegas trip here or there but thats it). all of my friends don't play poker and have normal lives and normal jobs. I'm not sure why this is i think part of it has to do with me not living in la and the fact that i commute to play poker so in a way the guys I'm friendly with that play poker are more like my co-worker buddies.

i think its important to form relationships outside of poker for a ton of reasons. when i leave commerce i use to like discussing hands w/ players through text but i haven't done that in prob a few yrs maybe i just lost interest in doing that i dunno (i still enjoy poker however). i completely set aside poker from other activities that i enjoy and i feel that I'm happier when i do this. i rarely talk abt poker w/ my friends/family or ppl that i meet i usually just say I'm self employed (i use to tell ppl i play poker but they usually just kind of think of me as some weird degen guy so i stopped doing this... kinda unfortunate but necessary for me to do w/ the type of ppl i hang out with/meet). maybe this will change in the future or maybe I'm hanging out w/ the wrong ppl but i doubt this is the case. i think ppl outside of gambling are always going to view pro gambling in a negative way and I'm tired of trying to explain that its a legit way to make a living (i use to do this when i was younger but quickly realized it went nowhere and just made ppl think i was more of a degen than they originally thought haha).

also i used to play odd hours but my life was terrible (always awake at night f's u up or at least it does to me). all my friends are never awake when I'm awake and its hard to do social things like dinners/events/dates w/o taking the whole day off from poker (for ex I'm going to san diego tom and i didn't play poker for the past 3 days so i can adjust my sleep schedule to wakeup early in the morning (i.e. 9am) just so i can go out w/ my friends). so b/c of all this I'm pretty much set on playing "normal" hours (as in 12-1pm to around 10-11pm) so i can be awake during the times that i want to be.

so i guess maybe try keeping your life and poker separate or try to establish or reconnect w/ your relationships outside of poker? i think i would hate my life if all the ppl/friends i surrounded myself with were poker players/involved in poker/gambling. interacting w/ those outside of poker i think is real important/does help w/ health.

The title of the story was actually "That Hell Bound Train" by Robert Bloch. Finally found it in an old compendium of SF stories that I have.

This post is so golden. All my friends are from the poker world. Kindred spirits ftmfw imo.

(But yeah, plenty of scumbags too/in general a rough environment)