in situation 1, I lean towards calling. If the dynamic between you two is crazy, then 4 bet/call. If you know this guy never 5 bet bluffs then you can 4 bet small/fold (this is the rarest and most special case)

calling is best in my opinion, because you can call down any A or Q flop, where he will prolly bluff off. you can also, call really dry low boards like 4 4 2. And villains will usually shut down on those since you prolly never fold medium pairs on them. On very draw heavy middle boards like J T 8, 9 8 7, villain will give you credit for something since the majority of your perceived range is in that area.

situation 2, I would either fold or 4 bet as a bluff. If you can't call you might as well 4 bet bluff with the best hand in your folding range.

I agree with this, and my earlier recommendations were from a general knowledge of how most competent regs with a wide 3 betting range in late position play. It is important to observe villains post flop aggression and the range of hands you see from him at showdown.

You see a ton of competent good players 3 betting A9s with 100bb stacks? I feel our definition of competent differs greatly.

Yes. It's obviously not for value. Just because it's beyond the scope of your understanding doesn't mean that good players can't do it profitably.

Along the lines with what I was thinking too, which is what makes this in the gray area and worth discussion.

How bad would it be to flat if you have AQs in a situation like hand #2? I feel like if you're going to re-squeeze and 4-bet AQ, you might as well have KJo either way, it's not for value and you're going to fold to a 5-bet (unless you have just some sick read that he's 5-betting you light, but I'm not going to get into that) You do have position on the raiser, although you might not if the other two players in the hand decide to call.

just cuz a player might do something pre that is slightly -EV doesn't mean he is incompetent. and 3 betting A9s against a lag opening in hj or co is debatable on whether it is -EV.

I saw steven o dwyer call my open raise with 52o in a tournament. this is ridiculously -EV. do I think he's a donk? no. he's a damn good tourney player.

An excellent balanced player is hard to find at 2-5 first. Second, if he is this good then he should be 4 betting or folding at a very good rate as well. Thus, 3 betting AQ with intentions of folding to 4 bet is an incorrect play. A wasted hand.

Ok so you are not 3 betting for value. I assumed that. So that is exactly my point and ANL touched on what I was trying to get at. Why would you want to turn a hand like A9s into a bluff? Now if you said you were 3 betting a player with a wide opening range who calls 3 bets too much with weaker hands then I understand the play, but it is for value.

3 betting a hand like A9s at 100bb in games like 2/5 is a waste. Just because you see people who you think are good doing it doesn't make it a good play.

Yes it is beyond the scope of my understanding why you would 3 bet a value hand like A9s, KQs, etc w/ 100bb stacks in a live low limit game especially OOP.

Just because you see Durr do it doesn't mean it's the same thing in the context you are describing.

I would prefer 3 betting a hand like A4o or T6s if I'm doing it in the correct context.

But I'm open to your explanation of why that line is more profitable and I will start doing it regularly. Instead of just saying I'm stupid which is an easy cop out and I understand why you take that route. Make sure you dumb down your explanation so someone like me can understand. I'm new to playing high level games like 2/5 and 5/10 so I'm interested to hear your view.

Ok. I never said because making play X one time makes you good or bad. I said 3 betting A9s as your standard line is bad at 100bb stacks especially in Live 2/5 and 5/10 games.

did you misread thread? he's asking whether he should 4b/fold AQo or flat or just fold to 3 better.

I think he was just responding to the tangent we went on with what a competent player's 3 bet range is. I think most of us said we would fold without reads to the original examples.

Ur right and thanks. After going back to the first OP post, the answer is simply this. A player this good (balanced etc) with position on us has our hands tied. We must fold. Doesnt matter that he has junk fairly often, we must fold OR flat and play creative postflop which I advise against unless the villain has been completely abusing the play.

Again, these players are still very random and few, thus moving would be your best option if he is a habitual 3 bettor and GOOD at it. Live poker goesnt allow for enough "grinding" of repetitive hands so that many are good at 4 bet bluffing ranges and frequency, thus this is not a good option for most. Just move.

If villain is actually competent and thus reasonably aggro, you should usually call in both cases. AQ is one of the stronger hands in your opening range and if you're folding this then you're probably folding to 3B way too much. Of course you can just dump it if villain's a nit.

Im sorry, but this is horrible advice. It takes no account of positional ranges, positional advantages /disadvantages, and villian's tendencies and history if there is any.

Basically your take is, AQ is a strong hand, dont fold. This isnt online 6 max, its live full ring. The ranges are way narrower in 3 bet pots due to the games being more passive and deeper stacked

Even if you flat in hand 1, where AQ is doing a little bit better against a button 3 bet range, you're still not going to flop a hand often enough to make the call immediately profitable. And when you do, you may be dominated, and most likely not going to get action if your hand is good because of the obvious difficulties of playing out of position. For Ex, flop is Axx, and he has 1010-KK or lets say he even has a weak ace which he 3 bet as a bluff. Now you're not going anywhere and hes not willing to play a big pot because its a clear WAWB situation when your range is basically AQ and JJ. So, because your range is so ridiculously narrow when you flat out of position, it allows him to play almost perfectly against you.

So, if you do call, you have to have confidence and reads on your opponents post flop tendencies, and not just their over all tendencies, but how they specifically play in 3 bet pots.

Do they auto double barrel? Do they always Cbet? Or are the more honest in these spots? Are they showdown monkeys? Calling stations? Good:thin value bettors?

In a live game we just dont develop history fast enough or develop reads fast enough in these specific situations to make good decisions when out of position post flop in 3 bet pots.

I think foldng is the optimal play, followed by 4 betting or flatting depending on game flow and the limited reads you have on the reg.

Hand 1 is a fold however 4bet bluffing it vs this type of villian 1/3 of the time is sweet cause of blockers.

hand 2 is a snap fold in this scenario. His line is super strong and spr is gonna be 1/4 if you call. You could call with a plan of jamming all flops over his cbet cause you expect a lot of AK/AQ/AJ in his range cause of sizing etc but in general snap fold.

how come online the majority i hear is fold from live regs. but at the casino all i see is call from live regs.