First time playing this game it's a 5/10 with $20 straddle. All involved in the hand are about 100 hands into the session and 2.5k deep

V1(button): seemingly good young white guy, playing fairly snug but table talk lets me insinuate he's a crusher in the game
v2(bb):seemingly ok young white guy that probably won't make any massive mistakes but probably won't do anything great.

Preflop: I'm Under the gun with A10 spades and elect to limp because of who was in position and getting exploited and stack sizes and stuff. Folds around to V1 who Isos to 60. v2 calls, straddle folds. For a few different reasons I think I have enough equity to call.

Flop: 10 8 7 all diamonds. Checks around

Turn: off suit jack. v2 checks, I decide to bet 145, V1 raises to 390. v2 folds.

What's the best option and by how much?

Fold turn. Don't bet turn, what is the reason behind your bet? I might lead out this flop, it is unlikely the PFR is going to bet without a very strong hand/semibluff so going for a check/raise with much of your range doesn't make sense. This hand would be near the bottom of my leading range.

You could 3b the turn and bomb the river if you have a believable image. I'd prob just continue to c/f the turn though.

My image based on this session is probably ok LAG who bets too often and will put money in the pot often without getting to showdown. A lot of sparring occurred between me and fish at the table.

This.

Yes also I don't like pre for whatever reason

Yeah this getting checked through really sucks. Bet on turn is bad. Definitely fold now. I think I'd find a fold pre UTG in a full ring game if there were people that could give you headaches OOP.

Limping pre seems bad here, I think I just prefer a raise or a fold. As played I just check turn here and fold to V's raise.

+1

villains range is capped

however this is +variance, i think better is c/f turn

I was bluffing turn with a plan for the river. It's hard for either v1 or v2 to have an actual value hand here.

But i think this particular spot is interesting now. What % of hands he raises turn w beat me ? What's my perceived range? What does he think i think his range is when he does that? What's his continuing range if I 3b? I honestly think all 3 options come into play.

If you 3b the turn and he calls what are you doing on blank rivers? This whole hand is really bizarre and I have no idea wtf either of you are doing so I don't have much to add to the discussion.

I agree 3 bet puts me in a tough spot if do that. But when am I ever not good here? I feel it's just a really weird spot that I have to be good most of the time but there's no good option.

Edit: and when I'm not good my perceived range is just so much stronger then his so that just adds an element. It's like wtf do I do with my hand.

Re-edit: what the hell can he take this line with?

You should give the actual reasons instead of just the bolded parts. You have a pretty terrible hand to be ****ing around here, villain can have a lot of things including 99 with 9diamonds, A9 a diamonds, etc etc for you to just decide you're going to win this turn card with 100% of your range, which is basically what you're deciding to do when you bet/3bet this turn or whatever your turn plan is.

Your frequencies are way off here. Also pre raise > fold > call IMO but reasons can skew that.

In certain lineups, limping might be the best play.

yea kind of funny that everyone who has said limping is bad hasn't given a reason...I pretty much never do here, but it's fine (possibly optimal in certain spots), and definitely better than folding.

If you're new in town you should probably make it 350 pre after this ridiculously small iso, get HU with the initiative and an Arnold-strong perceived range, and win this pot a bunch unimproved.

Preflop:

on opening I was opening about 25% of hands folded to me. My feel is that the three people in position are value 3b with better a ton and 3b bluffing with worse a ton if I raise (meaning in this particular spot I'm getting 3b a **** load). I don't want to raise fold this hand, I don't want to raise 4b this hand, and I don't want to raise/call 10+% of my stack with this hand.

on folding: stop it

on limping: I'm in position on the blinds/straddle who I definitely have an edge on. The three good players are friends and won't spar. They probably won't be iso'ing as much as they'd be 3 betting because this is not as good of a spot as if I opened. I am comfortable postflop and happy to play my disguised hand out of position with these stack sizes. Regardless if I limp and I have a new decision to make, I'm confident I will make a better one than if I raised/got 3bet.

Obviously preflop and flop are super dependent on everyone at table and gameflow, and I was confident enough that with the information I had available I made decent decisions there, which is why I didn't go into detail.

I gave all the information I have that was relevant to the turn spot because I thought that particular spot was interesting. Still think it's 100X more interesting than preflop and/or flop.

In hindsight Neverscaredb's limp/raise is pretty sexy here for sure. Might not have the best image to do it but could for sure be best.

I would strongly consider limp-reraising pre, it depends on how wide the button is raising and how he will perceive your limp/rr play here. In my experience this play works well as a bluff and will allow you to pick up the pot preflop or postflop with a small cbet, as your range will often be perceived to contain lots of AA/KK and people may call pre to setmine. 230 would be my sizing, it accomplishes the same thing and risks less the times he just decides to 4bet you.

I need some help here. Why is the turn bet so bad? Is it because we have a pair of tens? What range should we bet here?


I'll often lead in a spot like this expecting to take it down a high percentage of the time right there.

When we bet and get called here, we have pretty much no shot of winning at showdown. We can however win at showdown when we all check it down. Makes more sense to bet turn with hands that can improve (diamonds, Qx), made hands, and maybe some hands with no equity whatsoever.

check turn, fold now.

I guess no one explained the reasons why the limp is questionable, because the same arguments that can be made against every open limp apply.

If people value 3-bet "a ton" after your UTG open then you are opening waaaaaaaaay too wide. (Its not possible that you 4 bet too narrow while calling too wide since they bluff 3-bet you "a ton" as well). OR you are just playing with a lot of maniac fish.

Open folding seems standard on a tough table. Not sure what the arguments are against r/f or 4b. Both look better than limping to me. And they are for sure if do not have a well thought out open limping range incorporated into your game - which I feel is the case here. So fold>4b>r/f>limp imo.

An UTG open is usually the "worst" spot to 3b, hence you are doing it with the smallest amount of hands (if at all). Even the wildest players should iso your limps A LOT more than they should 3-bet your UTG opens. I think even fish realize this.

I do not think your hand is disguised at all. It is pretty much exactly what you would expect from a weakish live player.

I think preflop is 100x more interesting than this turn.

I would say theres a very very low probability at this point that either player has a flush or V2 has a 9 unless someone made a large mistake in the hand. Theres a somehwat higher but still low chance V1 has a 9. Aj, jk, and aj, can't call. Two pair or a set probably calls one street and folds a river bomb depending on my image and stuff obviously. I thought this was a weird scenario where a lot of the time I'm called I have the best hand, and villains will have to fold most of their range that beats me either or this street or the next.


I think in a vacuum I agree with what you're saying. but if you think about their most likely hands and the % of their range it comprises, I'm getting value out of the ones I beat and folding out the ones I don't beat on this street or the next.

Think about what hands they can possibly have that can play this way and Call turn/river expecting to be good against my range (provided river blanks). It's literally V1 having a 9as the only relevant possibility.