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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 08-02-2011, 12:29 AM   #201
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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well, firstly, you wont take that game if you live in america because it doesnt exist anymore and secondly if your gonna be involved in poker as a serious player and are properly rolled youll end up at your expectation sooner or later so counting hands just doesnt really matter. if your playing above your roll youll go broke in either scenario.
Has nothing to do with being rolled. If you have a billion dollars to your name and are a live pro and run bad you can realistically have a losing year. I'd actually wager that if you take 100 limon's that ~5 of them would have a losing year playing live next year. Meanwhile if you take 100 of someone with your same winrate per hour online it'll be pretty likely none of them have a losing year.

Most live pros will never reach the long run, especially if they take shots (relative to their normal game, not their BR). If the one time 100/200 runs and they think they're profitable in it and can get a seat, they end up losing 200k, you ever think they're going to regress to the mean fast enough at 5/10 and 10/25? This is irrelevant of whether they're playing under-rolled or have $500 million in the bank.
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:39 AM   #202
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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lol limon you realize that if you play 1.2 million hands/yr and make 10c/hand vs. play 60k hands/yr at $2/hand (assuming it takes the same amount of hours) that although both your hourly and yearly salary are the same, your likelihood of actually ending with that amount is by far higher in the first scenario? The guys making probably not much more than 200k/yr on average are playing in 10k+ pots on not a regular basis but it certainly isn't rare to see those pots at 5/10 and they're outright common at 10/25. Meanwhile it's possible the guy making the same amount online in the same number of hours probably hasn't been in a hand over 2k. I'll take the game where I don't have a chance of playing a pot the size of 20% of my expected annual salary. If I wanted to make my money that way I'd just play mtts.
This thread is an endless procession of people who can't see the forest for the trees.

Last edited by HappyOD; 08-02-2011 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:49 AM   #203
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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This thread is an endless procession of people who can't see the forest for the trees.


Would you go away already? You were struggling with 25NL-100NL online last time I checked and you've probably played a few thousand hands max at $1-$2NL live. We don't need any of your psychobabble input, work on your game instead.



Our differences can obviously only be handled by HU4rolls challenges. Here is one that might take place

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...9/index45.html

Samoleus (online player) versus EDDtown (live player). Obviously my money is going to be on samoleous. Who wants action?

Before anybody comes in criticizing HU4rollz challengs as being immature dickwaving contests, do recall that's the way things were done in the past. I mean take a look at Hamilton v Burr. I am still out of the country, but I am prepping everyday for you jlocdog. Are you on the east or west coast?

Last edited by loco; 08-02-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:17 PM   #204
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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This thread is an endless procession of people who can't see the forest for the trees.
Actually I see more know-it-alls who are condescending because they think it makes them look smarter than anyone else.

provide a logical argument or explain what the forest and what the trees are?

Last edited by jlocdog; 08-05-2011 at 11:21 AM. Reason: you don't get to say gtfo here
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:44 PM   #205
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Would you go away already? You were struggling with 25NL-100NL online last time I checked and you've probably played a few thousand hands max at $1-$2NL live. We don't need any of your psychobabble input, work on your game instead.
I didn't understand what your point of contention was, and I still don't. Is it the two posters specifically, or live players generally that you disagee with. The main problem is illustrated pretty well in your reply. You don't answer the question, and you change the subject to an unrelated matter. This is habitual in your replies. You literally are not hearing what is being said to you. Good listening is not related to psychology, it is a learned skill.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:56 PM   #206
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Actually I see more know-it-alls who are condescending because they think it makes them look smarter than anyone else.

provide a logical argument or explain what the forest and what the trees are?
You replied to a paragraph in a thread which spoke about the fun of poker, and learning to play perfectly and earning money. It was multifaceted and approached the subject of being a pro with some depth. It was describing a forest.

You replied "blah blah blah blah 1.2 million blah blah blah 60k blah blah blah 20% blah blah blah etc. You focused on a small portion of the discussion and missed the overall point. You were describing a tree in the forest.

Last edited by jlocdog; 08-05-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:03 PM   #207
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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I didn't understand what your point of contention was, and I still don't. Is it the two posters specifically, or live players generally that you disagee with. The main problem is illustrated pretty well in your reply. You don't answer the question, and you change the subject to an unrelated matter. This is habitual in your replies. You literally are not hearing what is being said to you. Good listening is not related to psychology, it is a learned skill.


We have been having this live vs internet debate for years. I mean look at the forum dude, its all in there. A lot of it is just fun and jest. I mean look, I have culminated my arguements with HU4rollz challenges multiple times, clearly poking fun at the whole situation. However, we like to keep the debate between people who actually play the game. Jloc and limon clearly play high stakes NL live and I have played plenty of both live and online, ranging from 400NL to $100-$200 NL live. This forum here is a battle between one side which has all the live players and the other side with all the online players.

For you sir, I believe there is a microstakes forum somewhere down below where you can go hangout since you won't be adding any fun to our ongoing battle that is clearly heading towards a HU4rollz challenge. Or if you feel you deserve your opinion to be counted, then you are welcome to provide input in the threads and I will keep a watchful eye for any donkish advice you may give out.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:39 PM   #208
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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We have been having this live vs internet debate for years. I mean look at the forum dude, its all in there. A lot of it is just fun and jest. I mean look, I have culminated my arguements with HU4rollz challenges multiple times, clearly poking fun at the whole situation. However, we like to keep the debate between people who actually play the game. Jloc and limon clearly play high stakes NL live and I have played plenty of both live and online, ranging from 400NL to $100-$200 NL live. This forum here is a battle between one side which has all the live players and the other side with all the online players.

For you sir, I believe there is a microstakes forum somewhere down below where you can go hangout since you won't be adding any fun to our ongoing battle that is clearly heading towards a HU4rollz challenge. Or if you feel you deserve your opinion to be counted, then you are welcome to provide input in the threads and I will keep a watchful eye for any donkish advice you may give out.
I hereby issue the following challenge: FULL RING FOR ROWLZ!

I WILL PLAY ANY PLAYER IN THE WORLD BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 10-3pm WEEKDAYS AT THE COMMERCE IN A MIX OF HS NLHE, STUD, LHE, and PLO (depending on which game i am sitting at). I WILL CRUSH ALL COMERS AND DENY NO ONE! (however if you dont tip the floor you might get skipped on the list). BRING IT ON! THIS CHALLENGE HAS BEEN OPEN FOR A DECADE AND I WILL KEEP IT OPEN FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS MINIMUM...NO RUNNING! (although for at least 6 weeks a year i will be on golf vacation).

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Old 08-02-2011, 08:00 PM   #209
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

It's on!! Carrot top taking on all online comers.


Definitely not tipping floor though, do you think I could get away without tipping the dealers also? Is anyone using 50cent pieces anymore?
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:06 PM   #210
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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It's on!! Carrot top taking on all online comers.


Definitely not tipping floor though, do you think I could get away without tipping the dealers also? Is anyone using 50cent pieces anymore?
lol. u dont have to tip anyone but they have little ways of getting back at you so tipping a little goes a long way. being polite and respectful goes a long way as well. another thing you can do is buy a floorman a nice but not expensive ($50ish) b-day or xmas gift and they will treat you like a king even if you NEVER tip.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:39 PM   #211
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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We have been having this live vs internet debate for years. I mean look at the forum dude, its all in there. A lot of it is just fun and jest. I mean look, I have culminated my arguements with HU4rollz challenges multiple times, clearly poking fun at the whole situation. However, we like to keep the debate between people who actually play the game. Jloc and limon clearly play high stakes NL live and I have played plenty of both live and online, ranging from 400NL to $100-$200 NL live. This forum here is a battle between one side which has all the live players and the other side with all the online players.

For you sir, I believe there is a microstakes forum somewhere down below where you can go hangout since you won't be adding any fun to our ongoing battle that is clearly heading towards a HU4rollz challenge. Or if you feel you deserve your opinion to be counted, then you are welcome to provide input in the threads and I will keep a watchful eye for any donkish advice you may give out.
OK, that's cool. I have no intention of offering any strategy advice. What I enjoy doing is learning about live play from interesting people like Tommy Angelo, Matt Flynn, Bart Hanson and Limon. The first three people on the list have forums that don't allow for interruption. Following Limon's story in this thread is more challenging. I feel like I'm in a meeting with Walter Tevis, the author of "The Hustler" and a bunch of other guys. Walter's telling us about Fast Eddie and his life and times, and shows a picture of his prototype shooting pool and suddenly one of the guys in the meeting jumps up and shouts "You can't control the que ball properly with a 21mm tip. Everyone knows the best tip for controlling English is 18mm." The comment seems to miss the point of the story.

But hey, if this is how you guys have fun with each other, then I apologize for interrupting the flow, and I'll silently follow along.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:19 PM   #212
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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You replied to a paragraph in a thread which spoke about the fun of poker, and learning to play perfectly and earning money. It was multifaceted and approached the subject of being a pro with some depth. It was describing a forest.

You replied "blah blah blah blah 1.2 million blah blah blah 60k blah blah blah 20% blah blah blah etc. You focused on a small portion of the discussion and missed the overall point. You were describing a tree in the forest.
No I was responding to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by limon
why on earth do you want to play more hands, what is fun about a hand of poker? do you need the action? why not just play stakes that matter? why not play in big pots and learn to play those big pots perfectly with tons of info available instead of a million little baby pots by remote controll? strange. youre thinking about the game wrong, you need to work on your fundamentals. the goal is money, not hands.
I explained that actually more hands where each hand had a lower expectation generally would be the choice of anyone intelligent. For example if I offer you 50k or give you a chance to flip a coin for 100k I'm assuming you'd take the 50k right? Only in live poker you can actually lose over semi-long periods in terms of hours (and days and weeks). Don't get me wrong it's a lot more fun playing in bigger-stakes live games and I've mentioned that the one thing I do enjoy about live poker is that online if I sat at a 10/20nl game I'd rarely be any better than the 2nd-worst player at the table and I have to table select just to do that. In vegas this summer I was regularly starting 10/20 and 10/25nl games with anyone there including HU and felt I was a favorite in pretty much every lineup other than one I found myself in (was a super-tough 10/25nl game so I got up and moved to another casino with a really soft 10/25nl game running and I'm pretty sure I went from being the worst or second-worst player to the best player at the table). But in general when the goal is to make a living most people would prefer the lower-variance route and even though I think the average 1/2 or 2/4nl reg online was making similar money per hour and per year (after rakeback) as the average 10/20nl live reg, the 10/20 reg has to deal with much higher variance.

That said I think limon gets a lot of things right and the reason I didn't address his other stuff was probably because I agreed with it. I just think he's wrong in this one particular instance and that most people offered the same hourly would take the one with a lot less variance. Obviously it's a completely different game and obviously now it's kinda irrelevant with online poker dying but from a pure money standpoint I think it's pretty naive to say you'd rather make the same amount of money but play huge pots in relation to your salary where you could lose your expected winnings over several weeks or something rather than take a lower variance game where the biggest pots you play are your expected earnings for a couple hours.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:18 AM   #213
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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...

why on earth do you want to play more hands, what is fun about a hand of poker? do you need the action? why not just play stakes that matter? why not play in big pots and learn to play those big pots perfectly with tons of info available instead of a million little baby pots by remote controll? strange. youre thinking about the game wrong, you need to work on your fundamentals. the goal is money, not hands.
This was a thing of beauty. Here's the deed. Owned
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:39 AM   #214
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

If I were a better writer I could write something just as eloquent defending playing live mtts for a living. Why would you play small cash pots when you can play with fish deep in a tourney with effective 1k/2k blinds in terms of equity? Why not just play really well the few times you make it deep?
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:36 PM   #215
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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I hereby issue the following challenge: FULL RING FOR ROWLZ!

I WILL PLAY ANY PLAYER IN THE WORLD BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 10-3pm WEEKDAYS AT THE COMMERCE IN A MIX OF HS NLHE, STUD, LHE, and PLO (depending on which game i am sitting at). I WILL CRUSH ALL COMERS AND DENY NO ONE! (however if you dont tip the floor you might get skipped on the list). BRING IT ON! THIS CHALLENGE HAS BEEN OPEN FOR A DECADE AND I WILL KEEP IT OPEN FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS MINIMUM...NO RUNNING! (although for at least 6 weeks a year i will be on golf vacation).

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Tuck your shirt in and get a belt!
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:41 PM   #216
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Tuck your shirt in and get a belt!
lol. only if im at a country club.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:25 PM   #217
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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lol. only if im at a country club.
Dude the hair looks like Jimenez!
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:24 PM   #218
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Has nothing to do with being rolled. If you have a billion dollars to your name and are a live pro and run bad you can realistically have a losing year. I'd actually wager that if you take 100 limon's that ~5 of them would have a losing year playing live next year. Meanwhile if you take 100 of someone with your same winrate per hour online it'll be pretty likely none of them have a losing year.

Most live pros will never reach the long run, especially if they take shots (relative to their normal game, not their BR). If the one time 100/200 runs and they think they're profitable in it and can get a seat, they end up losing 200k, you ever think they're going to regress to the mean fast enough at 5/10 and 10/25? This is irrelevant of whether they're playing under-rolled or have $500 million in the bank.
ya i might have a losing year, hell, im on my way this year , its nothing new. but a guy online wouldnt be having a better year HED BE ON THE SIDELINES. maybe you know, maybe you dont, I'm an online player! during the party days i played only online. i have no special affinity for live. i dont like to play over 4 tables on multiple screens for hours on end. i found it was bad for my health, seriously. the key is to be a real professional and follow the money, wherever it may lead, next year i might be counting cards again...who knows?

on your 100-200 game example you set up a straw man. no professional 10-20nl players jump into 100-200. kids and gambling addicts and morons do that but professionals take a backer or investor.

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If I were a better writer I could write something just as eloquent defending playing live mtts for a living. Why would you play small cash pots when you can play with fish deep in a tourney with effective 1k/2k blinds in terms of equity? Why not just play really well the few times you make it deep?
it has nothing to do with writing. it has to do with apples and oranges.

(im prob the worst writer on 2p2!)
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:59 PM   #219
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

What do the guys who regularly play 100/200nl and are good enough to play that high (and sometimes higher) play when those games aren't running (which I thought was like 95%+ of the time)? I just assumed they played in the highest game running and even during wsop I rarely saw a 25/50nl game running let alone higher. So I just sort of assumed that especially non-wsop time those live pros were mostly playing 10/25 and 10/20 games. Hell one day saw Eric Liu playing 100/200nl in Ivey's room at Aria and played with him a bit at the 5/10 and 10/25 games at Wynn. Maybe he was just taking a shot or maybe he doesn't play poker professionally or any number of other things I just thought it was kinda the norm for those guys to play in significantly lower games when nothing higher is running.

Also you keep saying online guy would be on the sidelines but there's more to the world than the US. I have plenty of friends who are online pros and have moved to canada and are still making a lot of money there. Obviously it's your decision and if you can make more money/live a more healthy lifestyle (although seems to me casino would be far more unhealthy in general than playing from your house) then good for you and you seem to be doing well for yourself.

And obviously mtts are not close to live cash just saying that in general the spectrum of higher variance goes online cash/online mtts/live cash/live mtts. Also yes mtts have an entirely other skill set (and generally easier to learn skill set) and probably make less money on average than cash guys that play the same stakes, but was just pointing out that your argument where you should want to play fewer bigger pots because you can make better decisions was actually backwards unless you enjoy variance.

Also I think this would be a good time to challenge you for worstwriteron2p2forrollz. Pretty sure I'd crush you
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:47 AM   #220
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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the key is to be a real professional and follow the money, wherever it may lead
This is a good point, but you already stated many times that hourly playing NLHE live is around 80$ for 5/10 and 120$ for 10/20 for a world class payer.

A WORLD CLASS PLAYER

I pêrsonnally am nowhere near a top class player, but can assure you i beat 120$/h - and over 1m hands sample playing NLFR 2/4. Lots of guys make way more than that obviously....

...oh yeah, it makes no doubt to me a world class cash game player who followed the money these last 8 years would have played online for the most part (maybe you remember those sick 500$/1000$ NLHE games where Guy among others recreationnal players dropped mils and mils in a few months ?), aswell as playing big live juicy games when they ran.


And - shoker ! - that's basically what the big majority of world class cash players did for the past 8 years....

So yeah, i don't get why chasing 120$/h at Commerce this last decade was the best way to "follow the money" ?
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:21 PM   #221
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Eh he already addressed that it's hard to beat 120/hr online if you can't multi-table well and I don't think limon ever said he thought he was good enough to beat the 100knl games online lol.
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Old 08-06-2011, 02:45 PM   #222
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

i know.... it remains that his argument that "as a professional poker player, you should follow the money, wherever it leads" is completely ridiculous when you know he ended up grinding 5/10 and 10/20 for the last x years.

no multitabling ? i guess following isn't enough, you need to work to give you the tools to "reach" the money also.

Anyway, i love limon, and my point is not to flame him.
And i'm sure he's a smart guy also. And could've beat online pokers if he really wanted to.

Actually the only reason i can find for him to grind live pokers for the past decade isn't that he coudn't beat online pokers ( if he would've worked on it there's no doubt in my mind, he would've become quite good at it ) , but that he was too lazy to work on his game to beat tougher games.

he didn't follow the money. he followed soft competition.
He played online on the party days, then the UIGEA passed, games became tougher to beat, he looked for another place with tables full of donks, and found himself grinding live pokers.

And while i totally understand it, it wasn't nowhere near a "professional" approach - not to speak about the "follow the money" part of it, wich i already addressed.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:55 PM   #223
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I don't know jij452, part of being a pro is knowing your limitations and making sure that you will get the money in the end. Whether or not any of the good live pros here could beat online games is a fruitless discussion (although I suspect some could learn) because following the money means following soft games where you won't make many mistakes. There are also other benefits to playing live like golf outings with some of the rec. players that can lead to more money. This obv. isn't true for everyone but it is one main reason I play live. The connections you can make are tremendous.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:15 PM   #224
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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This is a good point, but you already stated many times that hourly playing NLHE live is around 80$ for 5/10 and 120$ for 10/20 for a world class payer.

A WORLD CLASS PLAYER

I pêrsonnally am nowhere near a top class player, but can assure you i beat 120$/h - and over 1m hands sample playing NLFR 2/4. Lots of guys make way more than that obviously....

...oh yeah, it makes no doubt to me a world class cash game player who followed the money these last 8 years would have played online for the most part (maybe you remember those sick 500$/1000$ NLHE games where Guy among others recreationnal players dropped mils and mils in a few months ?), aswell as playing big live juicy games when they ran.


And - shoker ! - that's basically what the big majority of world class cash players did for the past 8 years....

So yeah, i don't get why chasing 120$/h at Commerce this last decade was the best way to "follow the money" ?
i played online at party and made plenty for years. when the port security act was passed i didnt consider online a safe place to keep money, i also couldnt make my same hourly in the 400nl and 600nl playing 4 tables...NO ONE COULD. and i didnt want to play higher because of all the cheating i knew was going on. i weighed my options and decided the commerce was the way to go and it was 100% the best possible decision at the time AND IN RETROSPECT! whaaa for me making 250k a year (if i played full time) since uiega. youre lost on this one.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:20 PM   #225
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Eh he already addressed that it's hard to beat 120/hr online if you can't multi-table well and I don't think limon ever said he thought he was good enough to beat the 100knl games online lol.
i dont know how well Guy plays now, and im not trying to slag the guy because he is obviously good at life and played poker for fun but if he was in any lineup playing the way we all saw on TV i could easily win in that game. any professional would be a fav. to win. they might win less than durrr, ivey, etc. but they would win. players on these boards who are savaged like chan and laak easily win in the worlds toughest lineups if there is a massive whale in the game. butttttt...it takes a lot of money to make that money, sometimes you get "phil ruffin'ed"...better have a cool mil collecting dust.

Last edited by limon; 08-07-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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