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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 04-16-2011, 01:55 PM   #151
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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All- I am very sorry to those of you whose livelihood has been damaged or destroyed by the new laws taking place in regards to online poker. It truly is a shame.

We will see you at the live tables jloc. Please plan on going busto soon.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:05 PM   #152
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I look forward to the challenge. I also look forward to all the new, stupid, mundane, live threads created!
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:11 AM   #153
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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We will see you at the live tables jloc. Please plan on going busto soon.
i just swear to god when I saw you posted ITT i was gonna read that. LOL
i do think live pros/players in US don't realize quite well this hell of a friday will hit them as hard as the "juvenile-sunglassed-mof*** 3bet online ****in monkeys" guys they imagine.

sry smoked up
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #154
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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We will see you at the live tables jloc. Please plan on going busto soon.
After that last thread...I sure hope so too! I'll get a first hand look into optimal pokers!
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:48 PM   #155
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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After that last thread...I sure hope so too! I'll get a first hand look into optimal pokers!


Unfortunately live poker in itself is not optimal pokers because of the game speed. I am currently playing over 1000 hands per hour online.
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Old 06-26-2011, 03:58 PM   #156
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I would just like to say that I have a massive tilt problem
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:26 AM   #157
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

My fold button is broken, and I have buttonitis. Whenever someone raises my button I flat with atc with the intent of floating the flop and repping whatever the turn brings. Although fantastic for my image, this is pretty much lighting money on fire. Fun times.
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:23 AM   #158
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Re: Fundamentals OTF

I made a troll post in this thread a couple of days ago and it got deleted, so maybe if I add some strategy to it they will let it go:


This thread is starkly illustrative of the huge gap between online players and live players. Anyone reading this thread who plays at least 50nl on pokerstars is scoffing at the comments in this thread. Players are just suggesting lines like c/c and lead and its just pure spitballing; they have no mathematical or empirical basis on why they think that is the best play. Live players, by and large, simply do not know what balance means, why it is important, why we must just give up sometimes, why running bluffs with an underpair and two outs is such egregiously bad play (it is the single worst hand you could turn into a bluff in this spot, actually).

This thread is the reason why live poker hands have no place in this forum, they should be in the live forum or, if anything, they should be in the micro-stakes forum.

Last edited by jlocdog; 07-26-2011 at 09:35 AM. Reason: post moved to discussion thread
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:54 AM   #159
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Maybe we should make room for all the online hands piling in and the good discussion that they have induced lately.

Oh, wait...

On a serious note, though I disagree with most of what is in that thread, I think it is ridiculous to categorically lump every live thread together to rehash this old, boring, stale argument (but this is the thread to have that in if you choose). I think their have been PLENTY of live threads that have conjured up some really good discussion. If you'd like I can always highlight the brilliance of some of the online threads that have come through here with their terrific insight and complicated concepts.....nah, that debate bores me..
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:28 AM   #160
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

The board is fine the way it is. I use to side with you Renton, however fullring poker is dying in the online environment. Some guy recently has posted a few good online hands, however that's a rare occurrance and whenever online people input in those threads they get warnings from other online players not to train the masses.

The truth of the matter is that medium-high stakes fullring poker is now basically "live poker." Obviously live poker hands are mostly microstakes quality, however like Jloc said their have been a few good ones (especially the deep stacked ones).

This is mostly a live poker forum these days and as an online fullring player, I accept that. I also admit, that these guys are learning and are getting better. I mean recently I saw jlocdog was posting about removing opponent's medium value category hands from their range.

Renton you are probably the best high volume fullringer in the world at this moment. No forum is going to ever please you. And if you inputed in all these threads I am sure the online guys would come after you with axes. But this forum needs you badly, just input a few lines once in a while when you see something atrocious. I think that would not only make this place your home also but the masses can learn to appreciate a true fullringer master.

I would start with working on the moderator's 3bet and 4bet game. Seems very suspect to me and the masses just sit there and accept it.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:55 AM   #161
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Just add 100nl and 1/2 to msfr, call it frnl, have 1/2 -5/10 live be a forum, have 10/20+ live be in high stakes, imo.
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:03 AM   #162
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Just add 100nl and 1/2 to msfr, call it frnl, have 1/2 -5/10 live be a forum, have 10/20+ live be in high stakes, imo.
That would work. Then the mod in high stakes would go on full blown monkey tilt. But you are right, when I am looking to brush up on some fullring hands I actually go to ssfr and read hands by some of the online players there. For entertainment we all know where we go.
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:47 AM   #163
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Oorrrr...just go post in SSFR and resolve your own issue.

There is a reason MHFR exists in the first place. It's because many were sick of the 100-200NL threads and found them remedial when the forum should be 'high stakes'. I think for the most part people are in agreement that this forum is better than it used to be and better off without smaller stakes hands.

As said numerous times, I would love for more 400NL+ online hands to be posted. I would love for online players to participate more. That is each individuals choice to make however and I respect those decisions. The reason this forum looks like a live forum is because online players refuse to post hands and participate (for the most part).

edit to add- loco, I am MORE than comfortable with where I stand vs you on any one of our debates.

Last edited by jlocdog; 07-26-2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason: to add
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:33 PM   #164
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

i think the strategy level of 200nl hands should be very close if not the same as 3/6
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:36 PM   #165
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Re: Fundamentals OTF

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I made a troll post in this thread a couple of days ago and it got deleted, so maybe if I add some strategy to it they will let it go:


This thread is starkly illustrative of the huge gap between online players and live players. Anyone reading this thread who plays at least 50nl on pokerstars is scoffing at the comments in this thread. Players are just suggesting lines like c/c and lead and its just pure spitballing; they have no mathematical or empirical basis on why they think that is the best play. Live players, by and large, simply do not know what balance means, why it is important, why we must just give up sometimes, why running bluffs with an underpair and two outs is such egregiously bad play (it is the single worst hand you could turn into a bluff in this spot, actually).

This thread is the reason why live poker hands have no place in this forum, they should be in the live forum or, if anything, they should be in the micro-stakes forum.
The good live players in this forum (although maybe you think that's an oxymoron), all play very deep stacked games and it's no coincidence that they all have the same leaks you are talking about. In those games being balanced and mathematical/optimal decisions take a far backseat. So while taking a c/c lead turn line may be generally suboptimal or whatever, in a particular instance against the right villain it may be the best way to get money in or get him to fold etc. That particular line is more prevalent live simply because pot controlling and firing 3 barrels are so different from online frequencies. It's not like winning players suddenly started guessing at how best to play hands, they adapted to their opponents and environment just like every online player has done. Balancing in deepstack games as a general concept is unnecessary at best and often detrimental.
The thread you linked is indeed lol and not an example of a tough deepstack spot, but there are some very good threads in this forum started by live players of such spots. I would think that the good nl50 grinders would be very lost in a deepstacked 5/10, 10/20 game, just as the good live players would be overwhelmed playing 6 tables with huds popping up everywhere. Perhaps the online guys could adapt better and more quickly, but to say that a good deepstacked live player couldn't learn the technology and differences of a nl50 game is absurd. A few are even well educated and have some semblance of reasoning skills.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:13 PM   #166
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I have a crazy idea -

Let's solve one argument - Online players are better than Live Players.

There, i said it. Ya'll win.

Can we FINALLY get back to working together in the ****ing forum, suggesting good advice and pointing out bad advice and actually creating constructive and critical discussions surrounding something we all enjoy doing as opposed to posturing and bull****ting about who pisses the furthest into the wind traveling at 20mph in a south south-easterly direction?

I for one would be appreciative of the sagacious advice of online 400NL+ players crushing the online game who fully understand the changes and adjustments one must make to live games considering its infinitesimally slow pace and therefore completely different mindset as regards to a sustainable win-rate along with the inclusion of somewhat different information regarding opponents and tendencies based upon what can be physically observed as well as backed up by empirical evidence.

I honestly was naive enough to think that the close of online pokerz for americans would help populate MHFR w/ a plethora of very advanced thinkers ego to flex their muscles and explain the things they've learned their journey through a 5,000,000 hand sample size.
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Old 07-26-2011, 02:53 PM   #167
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Nobody cares who is better. But obviously online players like Renton wonder why he gets clustered in the forums with much inferior players. For example, smokingrobot you reached the 25NL online games and then went to go play live. Now you input in the same forum as Renton. Renton is a facking beast and one of the best in the world.

The truth of the matter is 2p2 is an online forum and you see that "no limit holdem" tab over on the left with the following links

High Stakes NL
Medium Stakes NL
Small Stakes NL
Micro Stakes NL
Medium-High Full Ring
Small Full Ring
Micro Full Ring
Heads Up NL
Live Low-stakes NL

Those are all mainly online forums (except for two). One of the exceptions happens to be this forum. In reality all the forums should be online poker except for one (and that's where all live players can happily live). However, since the moderator for this forum is a live player and combined that with online midstakes-highstakes dying, then that is why we have this issue. Its never going to go away but please accept that its frustrating to deal with microstakes players.
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Old 07-26-2011, 03:37 PM   #168
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Nobody cares who is better. But obviously online players like Renton wonder why he gets clustered in the forums with much inferior players. For example, smokingrobot you reached the 25NL online games and then went to go play live. Now you input in the same forum as Renton. Renton is a facking beast and one of the best in the world.
Actually i've played higher than 25NL, however as far as site tracking goes and even posts on this server and not the archive servers, then yes - 25NL was as high as i played online. But i'm not really here to argue about me.

While i completely understand not wanting to participate in a forum that is populated w/ concepts and issues well below you, to simply opt out and just say the entire forum is a waste of time is completely asinine. There is nothing that prevents you, or say Renton as an example, from participating in both MHFR and High Stakes NL. Renton would obviously be a great contributor to MHFR and still be able to have critical and thought provoking discussion in the HSNL and who knows, maybe learn thing or two from both forums. There's nothing that locks you in to participating in only 1 forum last i checked.

Or perhaps a more foreign and bizarre idea might be - someone is underrolled for HSNL currently so while someone wont post hands that dont qualify for that forum, one can still easily be a contributor to the threads in HSNL simply because their level of play is so far superior than other MHFR-ers.

Or for the lazy - dont go on 2p2 because you've already learned everything, and participating in conversations where you can be of service (and/or the .01% of the time you learn something for yourself) is so far below your class and status, that to be seen rubbing elbows w/ the great unwashed of the collective posters in MHFR would surmise to something like social suicide - and you'd be shunned by the all great players for laying w/ the pigs, cattle, and other low class players.

Take your pick, there's an option here for everyone.

Personally, I'd welcome a player who is a facking beast and one of the best in the world taking some time to participate. I'd say the biggest issue any forum like this has is that its simply hard to police disinformation and incorrect advice.

I wouldnt expect a cameo in every thread as there are probably a lot of threads an opinion from someone of his caliber say isnt necessary or the topic just doesnt interest or evoke any kind of desire to participate, but again to conclude there's not a single thread on any given page in the forum that displays occasional, or maybe just accidental, brilliance warranting the presence of our generous lords and ladies is absurd.

Or maybe, just maybe, if there were more folks who participated more in the forums that currently exist, and their presence was large enough, their voices might be heard by those that constructed the space that an additional forum could become necessary in the future. There's probably a right way and a wrong way to approach that up hill climb, it certainly isnt through abstaining of participation in what is currently available though, because at that point you're simply a ghost and a lurker.

I'd also venture to guess that simply demanding a space be created wont get answered swiftly either.

Just to note, i have no personal qualms w/ you or someone like Renton etc, however the both of you might actually learn something on how to get what you're looking for if it really is the creation of an extra forum through sheer participation and involvement in the forum itself, but that has to start somewhere other than the sidelines with protests and "its not fair" posters held high.

My dad before he passed once told me that sometimes in order to get what you want, you have to eat some **** in order to truly appreciate the taste of what it is you want. I personally hate eating ****, but most folks couldnt give a damn to hear me go on and on about that aspect of it, its pretty much universally accepted that everyone hates the taste of ****, so my telling of it doesnt do much at all does it?

Realizing this may come across kind of harsh but i have no ill feelings about anything being discussed. it is true that the online higher stakes FR posts are drying up - what with the close of the major players to americans, it makes it rather difficult for folks to find games. But at the end of the day, this is a poker site. And whether its being played live or online, its a place to talk about poker. (When i signed up for this forum, would you believe online poker was just really coming into being? In fact, I remember when, prior to Moneymaker, online poker was hardly available save for a few places.)

Unfortunately this forum cant do anything to make online High(er) stakes FR poker magically available again, but it can be a place to discuss high(er) stakes full ring games.

I guess the only issue i can see is the possibility that every non-online related poker thread is so utterly banal that it simply wastes your time to even bother to offer an opinion. But if the complaints are that the posters dont utilize enough empirical evidence or they dont present logically sound arguments, what if someone took some time to help others get up to that level and caliber or participation in their responses? To me it seems like the best and clearest way to make the forum better, is to participate more and show through example the best way to attack and solve an issue - thereby allowing others to learn by example and become better contributors. That way, you can feel more confident that if you have a question, you dont doubt the responses so much, or automatically assume the advice suggested is off base and bizarre.

I honestly dont know any other way to approach the issue other than simply blazing the trail you want created by doing exactly what it is you're looking for yourself. But if you already have all the answers, there's probably a clever pun or poker related phrase that hasnt been used for a domain name that could generate thousands upon thousands as a brand new coaching site. Off the top of my head i think the following names are rather clever for an online training site:
StopSuckingAtPoker.com
Aboutreefiddytraining.com
SupBro.com
Omahahahaha.com
[ ]funny.com
Buthowmuchdidyoulose.com
etc

Last edited by smokingrobot; 07-26-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #169
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Just an addendum - not trying to be rude/dickheaded in all of the above at you specifically/personally, however we are the ones participating in the discussion at the moment.

My point being really, and i'll just use you as an example: Other players who play at your level online may be less willing to come to the forum because they feel like no one else at their level participates in discussions. However, if you for example, participated more, folks will go: Hey, loco's a good poker player and a smart mother ****er, he tends to respond to a lot of posts and he plays similar stakes against similarly skilled opponents to me. If i start a thread, he'll likely respond.

But if everyone collectively boycotts the forum, all the posters who play at your level simply cannibalize themselves. Everyone instead thinks "oh, nobody at my level participates in the forum, so there's no point in me posting either.

Here's the other thing: You're always going to have people responding to your threads for example who might not know what they're really getting in to. That was and will always be true. There's nothing that prevents you from responding to something you feel might be way off base and tactfully explaining "hey, thats actually the wrong answer because of x y and z." And right there you have created a constructive conversation because now other people wont offer the same nonsense advice nor agree to it because you've given a clear and articulate response as to why its not a good response. And etc.

You get where im goin with this right? If you can encourage others to post through your example, this utopia of a forum might actually become one step closer to reality.

Also, through your own feedback, you help bring others up to your level of thought and understanding. Obviously not everyone will reach it, but some will. Eventually, you've helped establish a very very solid community to exchange ideas and discuss poker related things.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:42 PM   #170
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Re: Fundamentals OTF

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Originally Posted by Renton View Post
I made a troll post in this thread a couple of days ago and it got deleted, so maybe if I add some strategy to it they will let it go:


This thread is starkly illustrative of the huge gap between online players and live players. Anyone reading this thread who plays at least 50nl on pokerstars is scoffing at the comments in this thread. Players are just suggesting lines like c/c and lead and its just pure spitballing; they have no mathematical or empirical basis on why they think that is the best play. Live players, by and large, simply do not know what balance means, why it is important, why we must just give up sometimes, why running bluffs with an underpair and two outs is such egregiously bad play (it is the single worst hand you could turn into a bluff in this spot, actually).

This thread is the reason why live poker hands have no place in this forum, they should be in the live forum or, if anything, they should be in the micro-stakes forum.
This post is exactly why online players (who do not acknowledge the differences between online and live) should never post/troll in a live thread. Ever think that just maybe what is right at nl200 (where most people are playing a bunch of tables making quick/well-informed decisions through the use of HUDs and pokerstove) might not be right at live 5-10 (where balancing against someone you have no history with is a giant waste of money and there are villains--like the one described in that thread-- who will not stack off an overpair for 100 bbs in a single raised pot)?

---

Also, it wouldn't matter if 2p2 created new live subforums for each level. Hotshot online players (and of course those who have just enjoyed an extended heater at some point and are rightfully insecure about their abilities/edge) who don't get enough recognition/attention from their peers, parents, the ladies, whatever, would still come in to big time/troll... And the online strategy subforums would become absolute ghost towns imo. There is so little edge available online (compared to live) and the player pool is sooooooooooo much smaller that those who have an edge, usually don't want to give it away for free (which makes a ton of sense). Also, there are so few variables/x-factors (this guy is drunk, this guy is showing one of his cards, this guy just gave a speech, etc) in online play that there is a lot less to discuss usually--> it seems like in almost every online strat thread started these days, someone says, "stove it" after like 4 replies and the thread dies immediately.

Live players otoh can comfortably spill their strat in threads imo because the player pool is incredibly large and the value in posting (crystallization of ideas/adjusting through feedback/staying sharp in a terribly slow game where common spots online may only come up once a month) massively outweighs the drawback of the games you play in perhaps getting marginally tougher. Also, as mentioned, there is often a ****ton more to consider/discuss in any given hand/spot...

Having said all that, the online players who post in live threads who aren't too smug/busy patting themselves on the back (for being online players) to realize it's a different (admittedly much more primative) game, often provide the most logic and usefull insight imo. soah, jimmyvjv, pizzle (when he was active), notontilt09, etc, are all excellent contributors who also do a pretty good job imo of not trolling too hard when the conversation gets too dumb/remedial for them given their online background. Even loco takes a break from battling jloc/making fun of live players occasionally to drop some solid contributions .

IMO
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:14 AM   #171
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Balance is obviously important, even vs unknown regs, even in live games. I don't really agree with your edge argument, except to say that the good regs online are certainly more tight-lipped when it comes to posting strategy. Yes, obviously there would be trolling in live threads if they were all in the live forum, but what frustrates people (like me) about them being in this forum is that they have to sift through a bunch of dumb live hands (that usually aren't marked 'live' in the title btw) just to find a hand that is relevant to the game that they play.

It's just a matter of comparing categories and if they are similar beyond a point, then they are worth combining. It is clear that there isn't enough volume of 2/4+ full ring online threads to justify a forum, and that something else must be included. I believe that 3/6 full ring online has more in common with 100nl fr, or six max for that matter, than 2/5 live. Live is a unique game, and while DGAF's post romanticizes the hell out of it, that part is true, I'll agree that the occasional 500bb deep 3rd nuts hand is interesting, and not very similar to any online spot.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:23 AM   #172
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Also I'm not back-patting myself at all when I make that post. I've never had an ego when it comes to poker. I've struggled non stop for five years to get my results and I still struggle now, every session. To say that online players, by and large, are superior at poker by all metrics to live players, by and large, is stating a fact. It doesn't speak to the intelligence of those players, the online realm simply experienced far more rapid evolution than the live realm for several reasons which we all know. I made that post in the Fundamentals OTF thread out of consideration of others, as that noxious thread was actually making them worse at poker every day that it continued to fester.

Last edited by Renton; 07-27-2011 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:09 PM   #173
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Also I'm not back-patting myself at all when I make that post. I've never had an ego when it comes to poker. I've struggled non stop for five years to get my results and I still struggle now, every session. To say that online players, by and large, are superior at poker by all metrics to live players, by and large, is stating a fact. It doesn't speak to the intelligence of those players, the online realm simply experienced far more rapid evolution than the live realm for several reasons which we all know. I made that post in the Fundamentals OTF thread out of consideration of others, as that noxious thread was actually making them worse at poker every day that it continued to fester.
dude, I could personally care less about your achievements and your BB/100 at x00NL+ however, I would definitely appreciate your participation in things: if you see some glaring errors in a post that could potentially lead to interesting discussion, correct folks with some knowledge and maybe steer the conversation towards a higher level with a question you might have yourself. you might be surprised at who responds/level of responses.

effectively the same thing I said edited but I would continually try to participate and help steer conversations in a direction you want while sill takin the time to address the thread topic.

here's how I usually tell it's an online thread via thread title: online threads 90% of the time start with something like: 400NL blah blah blah

there just happens to be a large # of players contributing to sustaining this forum that play live who for the most part aren't sitting around simply criticizing the forums existence.

maybe a lot of those posts don't offer the kind of stray talk you're looking for but it shouldn't prevent you from starting it yourself or picking up the conversation from point A and takin it to point Z.

I don't want to speak for everyone but I'm sure a lot of the solid live players would greatly appreciate your participation and welcome a better analysis if it exists and a deeper level of stray discussion. but no one will know any of this if folks simply abstain. take imaginary f(r)iend for example - dude obviously plays predominantly online but def takes te time to comment in a host of live threads and is by no means shunned for doing so even if he offers a contrary opinion to the collective accepted understanding of a situation.

seriously, it will take some time to get the forum to a place you think it should be but if I were in your spot, Id say it's worth the effort in order to et what o want.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:04 PM   #174
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

i am impressed at how concisely and eloquently renton is able to summarize why the online players are frustrated about this situation, and disappointed at the weak pseudo-arguments that he has to suffer through. he's made some excellent arguments as to why online/live should be segregated and i believe that the replies to these arguments quite obviously fall way, way short.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:07 PM   #175
smokingrobot
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurt View Post
i am impressed at how concisely and eloquently renton is able to summarize why the online players are frustrated about this situation, and disappointed at the weak pseudo-arguments that he has to suffer through.
out of curiosity, which pseudo arguments do you speak of?
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