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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 02-09-2010, 06:45 PM   #51
jlocdog
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Hurt- A live forum cannot be created because people with more power than me says so. That's how I come up with that statement. There should be no further debate on that subject if only because it will lead to nowhere. Whether I agree that a live forum should be created is either here nor there as my opinion on this matter does not count. I have accepted that and moved on. I suggest everybody else do the same to keep the bits of sanity you may still have or else you will be essentially arguing against a brick wall. As of right now the issue has been discussed at length to the point of no further discussion is being held at this time. I apologize if this goes against your ideals for these boards (you are not alone) and or infuriates you. Lets now be proactive in finding solutions to co-exist.

I never said I could not include 200NL. In fact if I recall, I said, "If the masses feel I am wrong with this and wish to add lower limit play into this forum, I will absolutely address the issue and make the proper changes."

Also, I hope everybody has noticed the vibe within the strategy threads as of late. People are more helpful and good debate is being created out of good discussion. I am pleased at the way posters are carrying themselves.

Doublfly- What do you suggest we use as this carrot? I am intrigued.

Jumaji- I do play some online and usually in the stakes of 1/2 to 3/6. I choose not to share my username though for obvious reasons.
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:50 PM   #52
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

it doesn't infuriate me, it's just peculiar that arguing with the "people with more power" is synonymous to arguing with a brick wall, especially since most people that visit these boards are open-minded and rational. we are poker players after all.
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:52 PM   #53
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Actually I don't know why you won't tell us who you are. Care to enlighten me?
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:09 PM   #54
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Hurt- I used that analogy because in-depth discussion has already taken place over the course of 5 years, 30 threads, 7 forums, and many mod wars. It has already been decided on. They have taken into account the pros and cons of such a forum and deemed it not worthy. I can't believe you have never seen any of these threads or heard the arguments from the other side (again not that I fully agree with them). And if you have read some of the threads, you would know that I have thrown my hat in the ring for a trial period for a live forum and would even moderate it.

Dealing with higher ups is not synonymous with arguing with a brick wall....the discussion about a live forum is.

I am more than ok with their decision though as I can understand both sides of the argument. Either way, what does it matter? Why can't you just not open threads that you know you will not like to participate in?

Jumanji- Actually I don't know why you care so much. And I'm sure you can come up with a handful of reasons why I don't want my screename to be outed. If not, I apologize and hope it won't bother you for too long.

Beyond that, I have no clue what my screename or even poker playing ability has to do with anything. I have never once asked anyone of you to do something you didn't want to do nor have I said that my opinion on strategy advice is always right (so why you feel you need credentials is beyond me). I've only asked you show common courtesy and respect to others and when entering a strategy thread to please not troll, level, or derail it.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:17 PM   #55
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Hurt- I used that analogy because in-depth discussion has already taken place over the course of 5 years, 30 threads, 7 forums, and many mod wars. It has already been decided on. They have taken into account the pros and cons of such a forum and deemed it not worthy. I can't believe you have never seen any of these threads or heard the arguments from the other side (again not that I fully agree with them). And if you have read some of the threads, you would know that I have thrown my hat in the ring for a trial period for a live forum and would even moderate it.

Dealing with higher ups is not synonymous with arguing with a brick wall....the discussion about a live forum is.

I am more than ok with their decision though as I can understand both sides of the argument. Either way, what does it matter? Why can't you just not open threads that you know you will not like to participate in?

Jumanji- Actually I don't know why you care so much. And I'm sure you can come up with a handful of reasons why I don't want my screename to be outed. If not, I apologize and hope it won't bother you for too long.

Beyond that, I have no clue what my screename or even poker playing ability has to do with anything. I have never once asked anyone of you to do something you didn't want to do nor have I said that my opinion on strategy advice is always right (so why you feel you need credentials is beyond me). I've only asked you show common courtesy and respect to others and when entering a strategy thread to please not troll, level, or derail it.
I actually do think you're ability in poker would be relevant. You say you are looking for advanced concept chat but the fact you say you have read every thread and still allow live threads baffles me. How exactly are live threads going to be magically better just because there is no trolling? In fact the only reason most people read the live threads are because of the trolling. The best part of it all? Most of the people getting leveled don't even realize it because they are NOT advanced players.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:45 PM   #56
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I would hope by this point that my posts can speak for themselves as to whether or not you or anybody else thinks that I have sufficient enough knowledge of the game. I am always up for a debate on a given play or hand and offer my thoughts in full. If you or anybody else ever cares to participate in one of these debates, you can find me in many of the strategy threads offering my opinions. I eagerly await your thoughts (I am serious).

I have just begun to attempt to make this forum more friendly. I am not even a month old to the job and thought it would be best to observe before I acted. I am now acting. I am instilling a no tolerance zone for derailing strategy threads. I thought I had made myself abundantly clear on this matter. Though a few of you may be upset with this "common courtesy" rule, I assure you many more are happy that they will have a place to post and discuss hands, theory, concepts, etc..

It seems to me that you and/or others may be just be upset that you are not allowed to have the whole forum as one big '**** thread' but rather are now relegated to just a few individual threads to spread your joy. Why this bothers you is beyond me since many have already stated that they either/both never go into strategy threads because they are terrible or choose not to offer good advice because its bad for their game, etc.. Whats the big deal or issue here? I am thoroughly confused.

Last edited by jlocdog; 02-09-2010 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:28 PM   #57
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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I actually do think you're ability in poker would be relevant. You say you are looking for advanced concept chat but the fact you say you have read every thread and still allow live threads baffles me. How exactly are live threads going to be magically better just because there is no trolling? In fact the only reason most people read the live threads are because of the trolling. The best part of it all? Most of the people getting leveled don't even realize it because they are NOT advanced players.
Reading through this discussion I find it quite curious that all live threads are horrible - simply because they are live. Although I believe that you are an advanced player, and concede that many live threads are too basic for discussion at this level, I believe you are being irrational in your prejudices against live threads.

For example, previously in this thread I posted a link to couple of recent live 1/2 threads that, while perhaps not advanced enough for HSNL-FR, were certainly not simple or basic. One poster from this forum gave a couple of brief takes on them, which I appreciated. However, not to be a dick, but both of his comments looked as though he really hadn't considered the situations very closely, and I'll bet if he took more time to consider them, he'd take his comments back. He actually proves my point that a lot of you guys just dismiss live post - irrationally, imo - without considering that they are sometimes not as simple as you might believe.

Last edited by FoldnDark; 02-09-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:49 PM   #58
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I looked at both hands (regret it already), and both plays were incredibly simple just like previous poster said. If he said anymore then he did, he'd be holding the person's hand he was writing to. If you think they are wrong then why don't you say why. I'd love to hear why you do following if he's wrong. On hand 1, you would fold pre or 4b/fold? He said the other 2 options are fine. On hand 2, you would not jam turn? What would you do? He's right in both hands and if you disagree I'd love to hear your analysis.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:57 PM   #59
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Those hands are more than welcome to be posted here if you think they will evolve in good discussion. If this is the case, please make a thread containing these hands and have a debate. This thread should stay on track about this forum and whats best for it and how we can live together in harmony.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:57 PM   #60
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

You can read my analysis as well as many other players' analyses in the threads themselves.

You'll find that the moderator of the forum and coach, Split, thinks we should fold preflop in hand 1, which is in direct disagreement with what Rosa said. This should at least illustrate my point a bit, that this hand isn't as simple as you are have already assumed.

On hand 2, I wouldn't necessarily jam the turn, because in this game I'm likely to be beat much of the time. I think if you look at the hand closely and perhaps follow some of the logic discussed in the thread, you might agree. If not, please post your reasoning in the thread itself, we would all benifit from your expertise.

Last edited by FoldnDark; 02-09-2010 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:02 PM   #61
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Those hands are more than welcome to be posted here if you think they will evolve in good discussion. If this is the case, please make a thread containing these hands and have a debate. This thread should stay on track about this forum and whats best for it and how we can live together in harmony.
I don't know if they are advanced enough for this forum, and I'm quite happy with the discussion they've gotten down in uSFR. My only point was to show that oftentimes live threads are quickly dismissed as overly simplistic, when they aren't. I believe two posters from this forum have already proven my point.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:24 AM   #62
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

It's really not a "let's flame the thread because it's live"

Rather its a humorous coincidence that threads that are poor are 90% live threads.

Threads that are obviously not on a mid-high level (which is possible whilst playing mid-high stakes, particularly live) are just going to get flamed because they tend to neglect many things that most of us consider obvious.

Yeah, ok, with a hugeee rock image and an ultra read maybe some how you can miracle fold second set on a 468T board, but if you knew basic math you'd only have to be wrong like 20% of the time or whatever to make getting it in bad. People do actually attempt to bluff rocks, and frequently.

A lot of live posts seem to be "i have the almost nuts, can i fold?", typically posted after someone lost with the almost nuts live.

If we had someone post a similar hand from the internet, I can assure it would be equally flamed.

That being said, I suppose flaming isn't nice of us, but the fact of the matter is it's the communal way of disregarding threads that don't belong in the first place in most cases. I think the real solution is to have a moderation scheme where threads that are clearly not up to par with a "high" level even if they are 2/5 live get moved down to SSNL. I don't know if this is possible.

Also, Jumanji, shut up on getting the moderators screenname/credentials. His job isn't to be a pwning poker player it's to moderate the forum. It's obvious by this thread he's doing a way better job than most in the past have even come close to. It's because of people like you (and me sometimes, admittedly) that this guy has more headaches to deal with than he should.

Kinda wrote a novel, but basically, it's not a matter of "internet kids flaming every live thread" although it may appear that way. It's about threads that don't belong being treated as such. IMO of course.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:47 AM   #63
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

yep started to write a post very similar to TE's earlier and then realized I didn't care enough to take the time. but he pretty much nailed it.

also look at imfromswedens thread that is the longest strat thread in MHFR that turned into a giant flame war when he thought that folding the second nuts was good and then admitted he can't read boards. that was an online hand between a respected player and a player honestly seeking advice who seems to be, well, at least not retarded. and because his thread was ridiculous it turned into a hilarious joke and we all just made fun of him. so it isn't that the flaming is biased towards live threads, it's biased towards simplistic questions that don't belong in the forum. I know they told you in school that there are no dumb questions. but that doesn't mean that you should expect overqualified people to waste their time providing you with answers.

so I have no problem with ending the flaming since it is counterproductive to the forum, but if mods are going to ask posters to stop flaming I would hope that they would actively remove bad threads live or online.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:00 AM   #64
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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I don't know if they are advanced enough for this forum, and I'm quite happy with the discussion they've gotten down in uSFR. My only point was to show that sometimes live threads are quickly dismissed as overly simplistic, when they aren't. I believe two posters from this forum have already proven my point.
FMP.

I think I get where you guys are coming from, and I certainly respect your poker knowledge. That's why I hope stereotypes don't cause live threads to be dismissed out of the gate, simply because of their venue.
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:01 AM   #65
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Call me selfish, but I've ceased to participate in hand threads where I don't know the OP's sn or don't know them as regular posters. Too many randoms that don't particpate or add anything to the forums wanting feedback. Not that my feedback is that useful. :-)
+1. I know in SSNL this is a major factor.

The original posters in active strategy threads are almost always regulars. There's definitely a certain respect amongst active participants within the community. My previous HH thread had 50+ replies as well as an active discussion amongst regulars who rarely contribute in strategy threads. When a regular posts an interesting hand, it usually garners discussion. Otherwise, I don't think people even open the thread.
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:08 AM   #66
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Vanguard- The chances of a forums existence for the sole reason being for chat threads is exactly 0%. I am more than happy to have a couple in here (we have 4).
you misunderstand me. i am telling you why this forum exists as defined by its posters who can post good content. i know what its purpose is supposed to be and it is really quite noble of you to try and squeeze life and value out of it. however, the regulars here have no reason to want to post strategy and for good reason. and thus this forum will remain a dead forum. i really think that if you merge this into SSFR nothing bad will happen. it will just remove clutter. just keep the reg and chat threads. the only people who are available to post meaningful hands dealing with Mid/High Full Ring are the same regulars that do not want to give out information/reads and thus continue to level. there is no reason 5/T live hands can't be posted in SSFR. many small stakes grinders play 5/T live anyway because the skill level is basically comparable to small stakes online. the live hands posted aren't really interesting anyway. they are just people wanting to fold 2nd set mainly.
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:55 AM   #67
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

this forum kinda sucks ass these days. I doubt these live threads are hurting it that much. If anything they may actually be helping
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:31 PM   #68
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Well, since you charge the coaches to advertise, maybe you reduce/waive the fee for regular participants? Or probably easier to implement would be to allow all coaches to have a 1 line signature - nothing outrageous, but something that makes it obvious he's a coach. I know on the left it says "verified coach", but tbh, it wasn't until a few months ago that I realized these people were actually coaches. Lol. I still have no idea what a pooh bah is, altho I suspect it has something to do with post count. Anyway, this would also ensure good responses, because no one wants to put out a response that makes them look bad. And you probably get more frequent responses and less spam for the same reasons.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:45 PM   #69
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Originally Posted by too eazy View Post
It's really not a "let's flame the thread because it's live"

Rather its a humorous coincidence that threads that are poor are 90% live threads.

Threads that are obviously not on a mid-high level (which is possible whilst playing mid-high stakes, particularly live) are just going to get flamed because they tend to neglect many things that most of us consider obvious.

Yeah, ok, with a hugeee rock image and an ultra read maybe some how you can miracle fold second set on a 468T board, but if you knew basic math you'd only have to be wrong like 20% of the time or whatever to make getting it in bad. People do actually attempt to bluff rocks, and frequently.

A lot of live posts seem to be "i have the almost nuts, can i fold?", typically posted after someone lost with the almost nuts live.

If we had someone post a similar hand from the internet, I can assure it would be equally flamed.

That being said, I suppose flaming isn't nice of us, but the fact of the matter is it's the communal way of disregarding threads that don't belong in the first place in most cases. I think the real solution is to have a moderation scheme where threads that are clearly not up to par with a "high" level even if they are 2/5 live get moved down to SSNL. I don't know if this is possible.

Also, Jumanji, shut up on getting the moderators screenname/credentials. His job isn't to be a pwning poker player it's to moderate the forum. It's obvious by this thread he's doing a way better job than most in the past have even come close to. It's because of people like you (and me sometimes, admittedly) that this guy has more headaches to deal with than he should.

Kinda wrote a novel, but basically, it's not a matter of "internet kids flaming every live thread" although it may appear that way. It's about threads that don't belong being treated as such. IMO of course.
I never said anything about how his skills had to be better than us to mod us. I said if he was at the same level of a lot of the live thread posts, then he wouldn't understand what the difference (like some of these awful threads) between advanced and basic discussion. I think this is a fair point. It stems from JLoc's claim that he's read every live thread in the past month. If he had read them all and not understood that 95% of the spots were incredibly obvious, then I question his ability to understand how dull the spots are.

To single me out is beyond ridiculous though, as I rarely even post in live threads. In fact, I rarely, if ever even view them. In the future, don't jump the gun or add someone's name in a post unless you understand their post.
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Old 02-10-2010, 02:03 PM   #70
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Too Eazy- That was a real nice post. I agree with you that live threads up to this point have, for the most part been lacking severely in quality in this forum. And as pizzle pointed out (the imfromsweedon thread) their online counterparts get the same treatment in this forum when shown they aren't up to snuff. So to be fair, people can and have been rude to all comers. Equal opportunity! I'm hoping to change this precedent and think we all can.

Vanguard- Ahh, excuse me. As of right now, I agree there aren't enough online full ring highstakes players willing to post strategy as many think it could hurt their win rate or at the very least, be detrimental to their game in some capacity. Each day though, this site is growing and the need for more space within strategy threads will be needed. So getting this forum on track for when we do get an influx of strategy threads is my top priority. If we have a smooth running ship then when strategy finally hits MHSNL-FR, we will be finely tuned and ready to handle more quantity.

Again, this is my first month on the job and things take time. it is hard for people to expect instant change overnight. By not trolling/leveling threads, we take the first step in creating a place for people to come. Be patient please. I promise you people will post here and the content will improve as time goes. But don't expect wholesale changes right away (there will always be detractors trying to stifle efforts) and don't think the quality of posts is magically going to go from abysmal to unbelievable. Right now I would say all forums are a bit down when it comes to good content. Baby steps.

dankness- I think the live threads help mainly in the capacity to siphon traffic this way. Certainly their content could use a boost and it is my goal to help achieve this.

Doublefly- I will bring your idea to the reds and see what their take is on it. Good brainstorming and much appreciated.

Foldndark- We welcome your contributions here. I just want you to know that this thread is NOT an online vs live debate and to keep the direction of the conversation away from that. It is a discussion on how to better this forum. All type threads have been guilty of not living up to forum expectation and I am trying to change that. It starts with common courtesy and will go from there. people will be amazed at how much dialogue is opened up once the fear of ridicule for the sake of ridicule is gone.

Jumanji- Oh jumanji...Yes I have read every post in this forum. Does that mean I think all the live threads (or online ones for that matter) are filled with quality discussion? Absolutely not. But as said already, I thought it best to observe the forum for a bit to see how things run here before jumping in and taking action. I also didn't want to change any of the threads that were made before my time. So the reason that nothing was done up till now was because I chose to wait, simple as that. You can bet that waiting period is over now though.

I would have thought that after this amount of time of me posting (granted maybe you have never read my posts) you would have given me the benefit of the doubt before making such silly claims that some of the posts have been going over my head. I realize that many have been remedial at best and may not live up to some standards in this forum. The way I see it however, their really is no standard set as to quality expectations in this forum since no real strategy discussion takes place. So to think that each thread has to be inventive and complex will never happen, nor should it. Sometimes a thread (live or online) just needs a checkup from somebody who is having a hard time seeing the hand from an objective standpoint. It happens.

To those that question civility as a solution, I would just say, we tried it your way and it didn't work. So we have nothing to lose to try it another way.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:12 PM   #71
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

I think it's funny that a lot of people ridicule the OPs when the replies are equally as bad in this forum. You either have a terrible OP followed by people laughing and flaming (I'm guilty sometimes) or you have a terrible OP followed by terrible advice (with few exceptions).

My point is that the advice in this forum is pretty terrible, although many people want to just blame this forum's demise on the terrible OPs.

edit: I will make this caveat. Generally, there aren't gonna be as many interesting spots in FR because people play tighter and do not have wide ranges. You're put in many more simple situations than you are in HU or 6-max, which can often be solved by stoving. Also, the full-ring players usually are much worse and unbalanced than the 6-max or HU players, so often times reads/meta/gameflow dictate the best play pretty clearly. Therefore, there are just lest interesting spots to create threads for.

Last edited by fds; 02-10-2010 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:25 PM   #72
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

Didn't you just state exactly what everyone else is saying without realizing it? The OP's are awful and no one cares. They either laugh or troll it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:33 PM   #73
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Didn't you just state exactly what everyone else is saying without realizing it? The OP's are awful and no one cares. They either laugh or troll it.
I only read a few responses, so maybe.

But I did not say that only the OP's are awful. I also am saying that a lot of the advice is terrible, yet those people want to mock the OPs.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:40 PM   #74
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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I think it's funny that a lot of people ridicule the OPs when the replies are equally as bad in this forum. You either have a terrible OP followed by people laughing and flaming (I'm guilty sometimes) or you have a terrible OP followed by terrible advice (with few exceptions).

My point is that the advice in this forum is pretty terrible, although many people want to just blame this forum's demise on the terrible OPs.

edit: I will make this caveat. Generally, there aren't gonna be as many interesting spots in FR because people play tighter and do not have wide ranges. You're put in many more simple situations than you are in HU or 6-max, which can often be solved by stoving. Also, the full-ring players usually are much worse and unbalanced than the 6-max or HU players, so often times reads/meta/gameflow dictate the best play pretty clearly. Therefore, there are just lest interesting spots to create threads for.
you sure?
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:41 PM   #75
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Re: Discussion on MHSNL-FR

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Originally Posted by fds View Post
I think it's funny that a lot of people ridicule the OPs when the replies are equally as bad in this forum. You either have a terrible OP followed by people laughing and flaming (I'm guilty sometimes) or you have a terrible OP followed by terrible advice (with few exceptions).
My point is that the advice in this forum is pretty terrible, although many people want to just blame this forum's demise on the terrible OPs.

edit: I will make this caveat. Generally, there aren't gonna be as many interesting spots in FR because people play tighter and do not have wide ranges. You're put in many more simple situations than you are in HU or 6-max, which can often be solved by stoving. Also, the full-ring players usually are much worse and unbalanced than the 6-max or HU players, so often times reads/meta/gameflow dictate the best play pretty clearly. Therefore, there are just lest interesting spots to create threads for.
yes
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